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[Music]

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you're listening to paranormal now on

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the inception radio network I'm Alan V

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Smith I'm your host and join us as we

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traverse the cosmic highway of

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paranormal pitstops and analyzing

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turn-offs if you're a regular listener

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to irn we have an iron smartphone app or

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listeners provide show lineups and other

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information and tools tonight we have a

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fantastic guest Kevin Randall we will

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get to him in just a moment as a

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friendly reminder if you're just finding

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Facebook at paranormal or radio or on

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always listen to rebroadcast on the Iran

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roku channel I know Iran is smart to

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make a move to Roku because Roku is

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exploding fast and if you don't have

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can call from your landline or cell

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phone to listen in for free at four oh

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one two eight three six seven zero zero

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again that's four oh one two eight three

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six seven zero zero and you can listen

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to the 24/7 live broadcasts on the

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Arirang station this is a podcast and as

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I remind every week even though this is

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a regularly broadcast show this is a

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podcast so we cannot take your questions

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right here and now for those who will be

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tuning in on Instagram live while I'm

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recording this podcast then they will be

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able to send in their messages so for

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future shows keep that in mind keep an

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eye on the Instagram account and

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paranoia now and and you can throw your

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messages towards us and we will get them

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to Kevin Randle or whoever the guest may

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be alright so speaking of our guest

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Kevin D Randle he is a former Army

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helicopter pilot and Air Force

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intelligence often her office

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who has been writing about the UFO

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phenomena for more than 25 years he has

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written or co-written numerous books on

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the subject including UFO crash at

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Roswell the truth about the UFO crash at

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Roswell and a history of UFO crashes I'm

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getting a theme here crashes and UFOs

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and he has made numerous appearances on

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television and radio including Good

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Morning America Sunday the Larry King

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UFO special and unsolved mysteries

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Randle currently hosts his own radio

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program the Randall report dealing with

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many kinds of mysteries mysterious

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phenomena including UFOs Randall is a

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full-time writer who has published more

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than a hundred books of fiction and

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nonfiction he is a former Army

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helicopter pilot and Air Force

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intelligence officer who has four

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college degrees including a PhD in

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psychology Randall

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is definitely considered one of the top

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UFO investigators and his research into

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the Roswell UFO crash helped bring that

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sighting into prominence he has written

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more than 15 books about the UFOs and

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other terrestrial explanations or non

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terrestrial explanations have been

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explored in those books now the book

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that I was lucky to receive and and

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Kevin I'll explain this in a minute I

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just almost finished encounter in the

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desert the case for alien contact at

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Socorro this is his new release and I'm

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really excited about that

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so Kevin welcome to paranormal now well

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thank you very much I'd like to add one

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thing if I might sure I wrote a book

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that came out last year called Roswell

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in the 21st century which was a

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dispassionate look at the Roswell case

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tried to put it in a whole different

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perspective so those of you who are

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interested in Roswell wadham might want

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to take a look at that because it

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provides I think some new information

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about the Roswell case and and kind of

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eliminates some of the nonsense that

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have grown up around that and I think

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that's an important thing to do when we

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when we're looking at the Roswell case

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because it has been so filled with all

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this other stuff that really is

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ancillary then too many people making up

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their parts of the story and things

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going off the rails so I think this was

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an attempt to

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bring it all back to clear focus yeah I

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think you're right and I think there's a

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lot of good intention behind

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particularly let's say Roswell with all

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the new younger people coming up and

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doing research or people revisiting but

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yes the the feel could be us bladdered

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and spattered with me not the best

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evidence circumstantial and I think that

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it has sort of fogged the field a bit if

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I may put it that way so we appreciate

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well when you when you begin talking

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about new people coming up and looking

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at the Roswell case the problem is I was

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fortunate my partners in the research at

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one time or another dodge met Tom Kerry

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Stan Freedman Don Berliner it's name I'm

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searching for Don Baylor we had an

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opportunity to talk to a lot of the

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people involved directly in this case

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right those people have since passed

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away exactly so the problem then the new

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researcher has is they can't interview

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the people they can't sit down and talk

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to them they must rely upon the notes we

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took and the transcripts we made the

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tapes that we made to see what the

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people said and kind of follow it that

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way so in that respect we were fortunate

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because we had an opportunity to talk to

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an awful lot of the witnesses who were

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involved or people who claimed to be

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involved we were labeled later able to

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eliminate them from the witness pool if

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you will yeah and I do think that it's

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quite possible that there are stories

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still out there yet told especially

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passed down to you know grandchildren

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but I don't know how much is actually

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you know reliable information at that

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point when it's just passed down

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generation after generation but maybe

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I'll leave it up to you the researchers

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to take care of that and then that's

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what I loved about this book I've always

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wanted myself to go out and just you

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know do research an investigation but it

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takes a lot of time and energy and

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dedication and commitment

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you to do this right and this book it

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even you know you go through example

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after example of similar cases to the

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Socorro crash through the for did crash

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landing and I it's it feels like I'm

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with you it feels like I'm sort of in

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the field with you and I enjoyed that so

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much I thought it was important to take

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a look again at this work or case as I

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did with Rosalyn 21st century I look at

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it from the perspective of 2017 Lonnie

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Zamora passed away for several years ago

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but I knew that he didn't want to talk

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to it I have a friend Bob Cornett and he

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was in Socorro to look at the Very Large

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Array which is the radio telescope out

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there near Magdalena New Mexico and

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while he was in Socorro on a lark he

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called Lonnie Zamora and Zamora said

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yeah we're happening we're having a

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barbecue come on down but we're not

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going to talk about the Flying Saucer

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so Bob went down and had dinner with

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Lonnie Zamora but they didn't talk about

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the UFO landing so he was very reticent

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to talk about it but there were other

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people who were involved at the time

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there are lots of military records that

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were available that we were able to or I

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was able to access and help bring things

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into focus about the Socorro case that

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weren't known before right well I know

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that it the name is slipping me but he

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was told by a couple of people and I

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know we're sort of jumping the gun here

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I don't so we'll get back to the

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beginning of this story as we go but

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Lonnie Zamora was told his last name

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begins with an H it's slipping me to not

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report that he saw alien beings write or

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symbols so there was a lot of editing

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going on early on that not all of it

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went well but there was and that's

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exactly right but the thing you're

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talking about Richard holder of course

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captain holder who was an Army officer

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who is involved involved almost from the

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beginning I mean with an hour hour and a

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half of the thing lifting off holder was

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involved along with an FBI agent named

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Arthur burns but burns burns

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and holder suggested to Lonnie that a he

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not talk about the symbol because they

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thought that if others reported the

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craft they could eliminate those who are

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making up their sightings or trying to

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be copycats because they couldn't draw

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the proper symbol and and they thought

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that was a good idea and Burns had

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suggested not to mention the aliens the

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beings because he thought that would

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open Lonnie's more up to a lot of

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criticism and ridicule which turned out

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to be the case so neither of these

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government officials army officer FBI

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were attempting to suppress information

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for nefarious purposes they were

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attempting to withhold some of it as you

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often do in a police investigation so

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that you can eliminate those who are

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faking things and they were suggesting

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to withhold the information about the

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alien beings simply because they they

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thought that Lonnie Zamora spreadability

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would be attacked simply because he

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claimed to have seen alien beings and

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that and as I said that turned out to be

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be the case that there was a lot of

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things directed at Lonnie's more because

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he were talking about seeing alien

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creatures although he never called them

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alien creatures he called them things he

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called them beings he called them people

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but he never talked about them being

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alien and I think that was a derivative

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of his belief that this may have been

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some kind of a black project out of

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Alamogordo at Holloman Air Force Base or

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the White Sands proving grounds and he

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was afraid to get into trouble with the

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government for talking about that so I

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think that that was part of his

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reticence as well but I mean it all

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comes into play when you take a look at

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the case as it as it exists today as

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opposed to the way it existed in 1964

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right and that was an investigative

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technique that was common for Project

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Blue Book the Air Force um like you said

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police work so there was nothing strange

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about that

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but it did sort of muddy the water later

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uh so I want to explain this now before

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we before we continue I'd mentioned it

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earlier so I had 20 pages of your book

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left to read and it was my intent to

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finish that on the commute home to

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needless to say my book is in New York

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so I didn't get to finish the last 20

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pages so unless there's a spoiler alert

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you know you can fill us in there but

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yeah I was I was I was kicking myself

273
00:11:45,609 --> 00:11:44,509
oh god before we went on the air and you

274
00:11:48,039 --> 00:11:45,619
and you would have missed all the good

275
00:11:49,599 --> 00:11:48,049
footnotes oh hey well I saw the foot

276
00:11:52,449 --> 00:11:49,609
left I flipped through some of them yes

277
00:11:54,579 --> 00:11:52,459
and that's great that's great Lee you

278
00:11:56,829 --> 00:11:54,589
did that work you know because then it's

279
00:12:01,299 --> 00:11:56,839
it's not just an opinion that's not

280
00:12:03,339 --> 00:12:01,309
conjecture I think that and UFO

281
00:12:05,049 --> 00:12:03,349
literature is evolving and you see more

282
00:12:09,219 --> 00:12:05,059
and more of the books with footnotes and

283
00:12:11,649 --> 00:12:09,229
indexes and and ancillary appendices but

284
00:12:14,049 --> 00:12:11,659
providing additional information and I

285
00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:14,059
wanted to make sure that the sources of

286
00:12:19,629 --> 00:12:17,569
the information were wood were out there

287
00:12:21,789 --> 00:12:19,639
for people to track I do a thing on my

288
00:12:24,069 --> 00:12:21,799
blog called chasing footnotes

289
00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:24,079
periodically and what that involves and

290
00:12:29,619 --> 00:12:26,569
the way it originated was I was looking

291
00:12:32,979 --> 00:12:29,629
for stories of dick shaped objects prior

292
00:12:36,339 --> 00:12:32,989
to Kenneth Arnold sighting and in June

293
00:12:39,189 --> 00:12:36,349
of 1947 because skeptical skeptics will

294
00:12:42,369 --> 00:12:39,199
say well Lonnie's sorry Kenneth Arnold

295
00:12:44,919 --> 00:12:42,379
didn't see a flying saucer he saw an

296
00:12:47,349 --> 00:12:44,929
object that was more a crescent shaped

297
00:12:49,359 --> 00:12:47,359
and people heard the description flying

298
00:12:52,029 --> 00:12:49,369
saucer and they began reporting saucers

299
00:12:55,499 --> 00:12:52,039
as opposed to these crescent shaped

300
00:12:57,909 --> 00:12:55,509
objects so I was looking for stories of

301
00:13:00,489 --> 00:12:57,919
these disc shaped objects prior to

302
00:13:05,529 --> 00:13:00,499
Arnold and I had found one that Richard

303
00:13:07,749 --> 00:13:05,539
Hall put in his UFO evidence and was

304
00:13:10,479 --> 00:13:07,759
trying to trace it back to its origin

305
00:13:12,819 --> 00:13:10,489
and there was a note that it had been

306
00:13:15,369 --> 00:13:12,829
used by Frank Edwards in one of his

307
00:13:18,099 --> 00:13:15,379
lectures in 1956 talking about this

308
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:18,109
railroad guy in Cedar Rapids Iowa

309
00:13:23,259 --> 00:13:19,970
railroad engineer who'd seen nine

310
00:13:24,429 --> 00:13:23,269
objects in the sky and the object the

311
00:13:27,699 --> 00:13:24,439
story was reported in the Cedar Rapids

312
00:13:30,489 --> 00:13:27,709
Gazette on June 24th meaning that he

313
00:13:32,049 --> 00:13:30,499
could not have been responding to Arnold

314
00:13:33,849 --> 00:13:32,059
sighting because he was seeing the

315
00:13:35,469 --> 00:13:33,859
objects prior to Arnold it was reported

316
00:13:36,909 --> 00:13:35,479
prior to Arnold and I thought well

317
00:13:39,069 --> 00:13:36,919
that's great I want that I want that

318
00:13:39,790 --> 00:13:39,079
story so I began chasing it down trying

319
00:13:41,050 --> 00:13:39,800
to chase it down

320
00:13:43,210 --> 00:13:41,060
going through the footnotes and finally

321
00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:43,220
found the original story came from the

322
00:13:46,150 --> 00:13:44,570
Cedar Rapids Gazette and that's all it

323
00:13:48,130 --> 00:13:46,160
said Cedar Rapids Gazette didn't tell me

324
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:48,140
the date or anything else and I went

325
00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:50,480
looking for and it turns out there was a

326
00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:53,690
guy he was a railroad engineer he did

327
00:13:59,380 --> 00:13:56,690
report seeing nine objects in the sky

328
00:14:01,960 --> 00:13:59,390
that were distinct he did not live in

329
00:14:05,139 --> 00:14:01,970
Cedar Rapids Iowa he lived in Peoria

330
00:14:07,810 --> 00:14:05,149
Illinois and the object and the story

331
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:07,820
didn't appear in the newspapers until

332
00:14:12,610 --> 00:14:10,730
June 27th June 28th so I was three or

333
00:14:13,930 --> 00:14:12,620
four days after Arnold so it didn't do

334
00:14:17,199 --> 00:14:13,940
what I wanted it to do

335
00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:17,209
but I was able to follow the footnotes

336
00:14:21,490 --> 00:14:19,310
back and get to the original story as it

337
00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:21,500
appeared in the newspapers and learned

338
00:14:24,579 --> 00:14:22,910
what I could about that and kind of

339
00:14:26,290 --> 00:14:24,589
clear up some of those misnomers and

340
00:14:28,780 --> 00:14:26,300
that's the thing I wanted to do with

341
00:14:30,940 --> 00:14:28,790
this book is here's the original source

342
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:30,950
of the information it came from this guy

343
00:14:36,579 --> 00:14:33,890
it came from this file at Project Blue

344
00:14:38,980 --> 00:14:36,589
Book it came from this particular work

345
00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:38,990
and let's see where where it goes

346
00:14:45,069 --> 00:14:41,600
so that the reader wants to try to

347
00:14:47,740 --> 00:14:45,079
verify the information he or she knows

348
00:14:50,050 --> 00:14:47,750
where to go to look for it so that was

349
00:14:53,290 --> 00:14:50,060
and that's the point of footnoting and I

350
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:53,300
think that a lot of the UFO writers

351
00:14:57,250 --> 00:14:56,000
today are beginning to do the same thing

352
00:14:59,829 --> 00:14:57,260
or have been doing the same thing

353
00:15:01,090 --> 00:14:59,839
actually providing good solid footnotes

354
00:15:03,370 --> 00:15:01,100
of where the information came from

355
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:03,380
sometimes it fails I know Richard

356
00:15:08,290 --> 00:15:06,050
Richard Dolan in his uh one of his books

357
00:15:10,780 --> 00:15:08,300
on the national security state had a

358
00:15:15,550 --> 00:15:10,790
footnote in there and it linked back to

359
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:15,560
a Timothy Goods book which linked back

360
00:15:20,769 --> 00:15:18,290
to something is the Laurentian book that

361
00:15:22,750 --> 00:15:20,779
I was able to find in the APRA Bulletin

362
00:15:24,250 --> 00:15:22,760
the Lorenz ins being Jim and Carr

363
00:15:25,630 --> 00:15:24,260
Lorenzen who published the Opera

364
00:15:27,699 --> 00:15:25,640
Bulletin arrow phenomenal research

365
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:27,709
organization bulletin and I was able to

366
00:15:32,439 --> 00:15:29,570
find the original story and the story

367
00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:32,449
had kind of like the the railroad

368
00:15:36,970 --> 00:15:35,120
engineers story had kind of evolved over

369
00:15:38,769 --> 00:15:36,980
the over the telling but by going back

370
00:15:41,769 --> 00:15:38,779
to the original source I was able to

371
00:15:44,170 --> 00:15:41,779
learn the details of that case which

372
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:44,180
becomes very important and provide you

373
00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:46,370
with a possible explanation for the

374
00:15:50,079 --> 00:15:47,600
sighting rather than something that's

375
00:15:50,769 --> 00:15:50,089
just kind of left up in the air and I

376
00:15:51,620 --> 00:15:50,779
didn't mean that

377
00:15:53,389 --> 00:15:51,630
Punda Lee

378
00:15:55,009 --> 00:15:53,399
yeah I left up in the air get it flying

379
00:15:57,879 --> 00:15:55,019
saucers up in the air yeah because

380
00:16:01,280 --> 00:15:57,889
that's that's where they're left up

381
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:01,290
chasing system yeah my goes in strange

382
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:04,050
directions but I mean if you're in this

383
00:16:10,819 --> 00:16:08,610
field I suspect it probably would and

384
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:10,829
the gentleman the the second witness to

385
00:16:16,189 --> 00:16:13,290
the camp Kevin Kenneth Arnold sighting

386
00:16:18,319 --> 00:16:16,199
there was something about there's

387
00:16:21,379 --> 00:16:18,329
something about the way he spoke and I

388
00:16:23,449 --> 00:16:21,389
don't know if you implied it in your

389
00:16:25,910 --> 00:16:23,459
writing or was just in the way his

390
00:16:30,050 --> 00:16:25,920
testimony spoke it sounded just English

391
00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:30,060
sounded off like very colloquial I think

392
00:16:36,199 --> 00:16:34,620
I think he was a poorly educated he was

393
00:16:37,730 --> 00:16:36,209
obviously literate because he wrote a

394
00:16:39,710 --> 00:16:37,740
letter but there were a lot of

395
00:16:42,230 --> 00:16:39,720
misspellings in the letter and things

396
00:16:43,930 --> 00:16:42,240
like that and I tried to use that stop

397
00:16:47,329 --> 00:16:43,940
because it gives you a feel for the

398
00:16:49,189 --> 00:16:47,339
individual you know very it could be a

399
00:16:53,389 --> 00:16:49,199
very bright guy but he didn't have the

400
00:16:55,340 --> 00:16:53,399
educational background to express

401
00:16:56,929 --> 00:16:55,350
himself or maybe just in inarticulate

402
00:16:59,689 --> 00:16:56,939
you know just unable to express himself

403
00:17:01,699 --> 00:16:59,699
well but I think it's important for us

404
00:17:03,079 --> 00:17:01,709
not to embellish what the people said to

405
00:17:05,809 --> 00:17:03,089
give you a real idea of who they are

406
00:17:08,179 --> 00:17:05,819
when I was serving in Iraq I was doing a

407
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:08,189
lot of the newspaper articles for the

408
00:17:13,130 --> 00:17:11,280
public affairs office and the battalion

409
00:17:16,460 --> 00:17:13,140
commander asked me one day why I had to

410
00:17:18,890 --> 00:17:16,470
put in the ages of people in the stories

411
00:17:23,059 --> 00:17:18,900
because he was he was pushing 40 and he

412
00:17:24,679 --> 00:17:23,069
didn't want that no apparently but and I

413
00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:24,689
said to him because it gives you an idea

414
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:27,120
of the reliability of the source if I

415
00:17:30,470 --> 00:17:29,760
tell a story and I say the person was 14

416
00:17:32,299 --> 00:17:30,480
years old

417
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:32,309
that tells you something about the

418
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:34,650
person if I say that person is 54 years

419
00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:36,570
old that tells you something else about

420
00:17:41,659 --> 00:17:38,880
the person doesn't mean the fourth 14

421
00:17:43,340 --> 00:17:41,669
year old is is unreliable but it tells

422
00:17:44,779 --> 00:17:43,350
you a little bit about that individual I

423
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:44,789
think it's important for you to grasp

424
00:17:48,950 --> 00:17:47,130
the story and if he's 54 it tells you

425
00:17:50,990 --> 00:17:48,960
something about him that helps you to

426
00:17:53,690 --> 00:17:51,000
grabs the story and if you put their

427
00:17:55,370 --> 00:17:53,700
words in as they spoke them it tells you

428
00:17:57,590 --> 00:17:55,380
a little bit about them as well and

429
00:17:59,240 --> 00:17:57,600
you're not trying to embellish their

430
00:18:01,850 --> 00:17:59,250
account you're not trying to clean it up

431
00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:01,860
for whatever reason you're reporting

432
00:18:05,450 --> 00:18:04,320
accurately what this person said and I

433
00:18:06,980 --> 00:18:05,460
think that's important as

434
00:18:09,409 --> 00:18:06,990
well because it all gives you

435
00:18:11,899 --> 00:18:09,419
information that leads to the

436
00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:11,909
reliability of that particular source or

437
00:18:15,169 --> 00:18:13,440
the believability of that particular

438
00:18:19,070 --> 00:18:15,179
source depending on how you want to take

439
00:18:21,409 --> 00:18:19,080
it and so Kevin where cannot people find

440
00:18:22,639 --> 00:18:21,419
your works and what site do you prefer

441
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:22,649
that they go to visit to find out more

442
00:18:29,810 --> 00:18:27,210
about you if they go to www.hsn randall

443
00:18:31,370 --> 00:18:29,820
blog spot.com they'll see a lot of stuff

444
00:18:34,730 --> 00:18:31,380
on there I've been doing the blog for

445
00:18:37,940 --> 00:18:34,740
like ten years there's nearly 800 nearly

446
00:18:39,860 --> 00:18:37,950
900 articles on it and most of them deal

447
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:39,870
with UFOs I get off into the esoteric

448
00:18:43,460 --> 00:18:41,850
like the curse of Oak Island

449
00:18:47,649 --> 00:18:43,470
periodically I'm looking at that one

450
00:18:50,419 --> 00:18:47,659
right now yeah and things like that but

451
00:18:51,950 --> 00:18:50,429
the books are all available at Amazon a

452
00:18:56,539 --> 00:18:51,960
lot of them are available in your book

453
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:56,549
stores and or the other ear eaters have

454
00:19:01,279 --> 00:18:58,320
them available so you know they're

455
00:19:02,930 --> 00:19:01,289
they're out there to be found and I

456
00:19:05,389 --> 00:19:02,940
always say you know if you go if you if

457
00:19:07,159 --> 00:19:05,399
you get the book and you you like it put

458
00:19:09,649 --> 00:19:07,169
a review up on Amazon because that'll

459
00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:09,659
intern me an extra 10 or 15 cents and I

460
00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:12,360
can use that to you know fun to coffee

461
00:19:16,159 --> 00:19:13,679
or sell a cup a cup of coffee or

462
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:16,169
something yeah it's well it's helpful

463
00:19:20,889 --> 00:19:18,450
also for your credibility because I

464
00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:20,899
think that you have certainly earned it

465
00:19:24,529 --> 00:19:22,710
I'll bring this up real quick

466
00:19:27,019 --> 00:19:24,539
the the curse of Oak Island it's funny I

467
00:19:30,409 --> 00:19:27,029
did a interview with his avian haze for

468
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:30,419
last our last episode and we kind of

469
00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:32,610
discussed this briefly because we had

470
00:19:37,159 --> 00:19:34,260
technical issues so we had to reschedule

471
00:19:39,409 --> 00:19:37,169
and then I realized we were scheduled

472
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:39,419
during the play of curse of Oak Island

473
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:43,890
and my stomach stomach sank no I can't

474
00:19:45,769 --> 00:19:44,250
miss it

475
00:19:48,529 --> 00:19:45,779
and I joke because I say it's you know

476
00:19:50,769 --> 00:19:48,539
it's one of the best shows on TV for me

477
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:50,779
and yet it's the show about nothing oh

478
00:19:54,649 --> 00:19:52,799
yeah it's gonna say they never do

479
00:19:58,789 --> 00:19:54,659
anything last the last episode I fell

480
00:20:01,549 --> 00:19:58,799
asleep and it was so boring yeah well

481
00:20:04,220 --> 00:20:01,559
you pee yes not like they haven't dug up

482
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:04,230
the whole damn island right you know it

483
00:20:09,649 --> 00:20:06,690
really falls into that category of just

484
00:20:13,370 --> 00:20:09,659
watching guys do stuff that you can't do

485
00:20:15,649 --> 00:20:13,380
what you do but I'm thinking they're

486
00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:15,659
about to sink the island they drilled so

487
00:20:21,710 --> 00:20:18,510
many holes in it since the boat's

488
00:20:22,850 --> 00:20:21,720
1795 and everybody's drilling holes in

489
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:22,860
different places and they're tunneling

490
00:20:25,940 --> 00:20:24,210
here and they're telling their and I'm

491
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:25,950
thinking the islands about to collapse I

492
00:20:31,940 --> 00:20:29,280
just yeah when you see those aerial

493
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:31,950
shots it really you realize that is not

494
00:20:37,850 --> 00:20:35,850
there's not much space there and there

495
00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:37,860
gets so excited when they we found we

496
00:20:42,260 --> 00:20:39,600
found this spike that looks like it came

497
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:42,270
from a ship yeah Wow great wonderful you

498
00:20:45,950 --> 00:20:44,730
know right I think plus last last week

499
00:20:47,180 --> 00:20:45,960
they were talking about what we found

500
00:20:51,590 --> 00:20:47,190
evidence that the island has been

501
00:20:54,070 --> 00:20:51,600
inhabited for hundreds of years yeah we

502
00:20:56,270 --> 00:20:54,080
know that that's not a secret

503
00:20:58,010 --> 00:20:56,280
last year I think they found evidence of

504
00:21:02,900 --> 00:20:58,020
a British camp and there's a woman named

505
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:02,910
Joe ste Joy Steele who did a book Oak

506
00:21:07,340 --> 00:21:06,330
Island mystery solved and she's come up

507
00:21:09,590 --> 00:21:07,350
what I think is a very plausible

508
00:21:12,410 --> 00:21:09,600
explanation and there's really not money

509
00:21:17,510 --> 00:21:12,420
buried there but what the the boys found

510
00:21:19,340 --> 00:21:17,520
back in 1795 and and I you know there's

511
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:19,350
there's links to that on my blog as well

512
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:20,970
so you can get there and you can see her

513
00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:23,490
book and I did a I did a show about it

514
00:21:29,330 --> 00:21:26,310
as well with her talking about Oak

515
00:21:31,250 --> 00:21:29,340
Island so I I think I think she's I

516
00:21:33,260 --> 00:21:31,260
think she's got a very plausible

517
00:21:35,570 --> 00:21:33,270
explanation and it explains that a

518
00:21:37,340 --> 00:21:35,580
debris that they keep finding there so I

519
00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:37,350
like that like the wood in case in

520
00:21:42,290 --> 00:21:39,600
concrete or something like that yeah

521
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:42,300
well it explains everything and and I

522
00:21:46,430 --> 00:21:44,610
mean if you watch the teasers for season

523
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:46,440
father said you know here's this pirates

524
00:21:50,510 --> 00:21:48,090
chest they've got a pirate's chest and

525
00:21:52,100 --> 00:21:50,520
you go wow great the second episode they

526
00:21:54,530 --> 00:21:52,110
say yeah belongs this guy named James

527
00:21:56,540 --> 00:21:54,540
Anderson and his relic the Senate lives

528
00:21:58,250 --> 00:21:56,550
here in Halifax and we'll go visit with

529
00:21:59,690 --> 00:21:58,260
him and they pull the chest out and of

530
00:22:01,970 --> 00:21:59,700
course there's no gold in it or anything

531
00:22:03,740 --> 00:22:01,980
it's just a lot of interesting

532
00:22:06,410 --> 00:22:03,750
memorabilia especially if you happen to

533
00:22:08,540 --> 00:22:06,420
be a member of the family but it really

534
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:08,550
doesn't take us to the solution for the

535
00:22:13,370 --> 00:22:11,730
mystery of Oak Island so no they really

536
00:22:15,140 --> 00:22:13,380
teased it a heavy this year I think they

537
00:22:17,630 --> 00:22:15,150
knew they needed to to keep people

538
00:22:19,340 --> 00:22:17,640
tuning in I really they really made it

539
00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:19,350
sound like they had a big find this year

540
00:22:23,330 --> 00:22:22,110
I hope that they do that did um you know

541
00:22:24,620 --> 00:22:23,340
even if it's not what they think it is

542
00:22:26,930 --> 00:22:24,630
hopefully it's something exciting

543
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:26,940
because there's treasures all over the

544
00:22:32,010 --> 00:22:29,010
place you know so Oak Island just be

545
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:32,020
maybe one place of of many others along

546
00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:35,050
Eastern order and you know who knows

547
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:37,840
what the fine but I guess it's the the

548
00:22:43,830 --> 00:22:40,170
journey not the destination in this case

549
00:22:45,690 --> 00:22:43,840
that's it I don't think they're gonna

550
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:45,700
find anything I think if there was ever

551
00:22:51,090 --> 00:22:47,890
any treasure there it's long gone and I

552
00:22:54,420 --> 00:22:51,100
think and there was something that I

553
00:22:58,820 --> 00:22:54,430
dread just the other day oh the reason

554
00:23:02,730 --> 00:22:58,830
for the artificial swamp I saw something

555
00:23:05,790 --> 00:23:02,740
a paper that suggested that some of the

556
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:05,800
the natives that inhabited the area had

557
00:23:09,780 --> 00:23:07,930
created this artificial swamp for the

558
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:09,790
oyster beds who created oyster beds or

559
00:23:15,090 --> 00:23:13,210
in the area for a food supply and that's

560
00:23:17,490 --> 00:23:15,100
why they have this artificial swamp that

561
00:23:19,860 --> 00:23:17,500
Smith's Cove is an artificial bait Beach

562
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:19,870
mm-hmm and it's and it was they were

563
00:23:25,980 --> 00:23:23,710
creating that for the oysters and I

564
00:23:27,630 --> 00:23:25,990
thought that was kind of interesting and

565
00:23:29,220 --> 00:23:27,640
I think I did I think I did a posting on

566
00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:29,230
my blog about that where where I made a

567
00:23:33,030 --> 00:23:30,510
pun about you know

568
00:23:35,670 --> 00:23:33,040
it's miss coves they were holding the

569
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:35,680
ocean at bay and I said yes I said that

570
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:37,530
on purpose

571
00:23:43,260 --> 00:23:40,240
yeah I mean the coconut fiber is that

572
00:23:45,330 --> 00:23:43,270
that's tantalizing no yeah and and they

573
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:45,340
also talked about throwing the the die I

574
00:23:50,250 --> 00:23:47,110
didn't remember reading about Oak Island

575
00:23:52,740 --> 00:23:50,260
and long long ago for me anyway where

576
00:23:54,690 --> 00:23:52,750
they had thrown died into what was

577
00:23:57,090 --> 00:23:54,700
originally the money pit and it bubbled

578
00:23:59,640 --> 00:23:57,100
up in other places out in the ocean

579
00:24:03,000 --> 00:23:59,650
around the island and they the Louganis

580
00:24:05,580 --> 00:24:03,010
brothers tried that at Oak Island and

581
00:24:07,050 --> 00:24:05,590
their latest assault on it and the die

582
00:24:09,870 --> 00:24:07,060
never reappeared they didn't they

583
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:09,880
couldn't find where it went it you know

584
00:24:14,580 --> 00:24:12,610
it's one of those things and borehole

585
00:24:16,170 --> 00:24:14,590
10-x which we heard about for decades

586
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:16,180
literally decades where there was a

587
00:24:20,610 --> 00:24:17,890
possibility of a body down there and a

588
00:24:22,290 --> 00:24:20,620
chest and tools and they finally send a

589
00:24:25,740 --> 00:24:22,300
diver down there and I'm thinking oh my

590
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:25,750
god I wouldn't do that on a you know for

591
00:24:29,790 --> 00:24:27,760
all the money that you could throw at me

592
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:29,800
it just seems like an incredibly

593
00:24:33,870 --> 00:24:32,170
dangerous thing to have done but he goes

594
00:24:35,460 --> 00:24:33,880
down borehole 10-x he gets to the bottom

595
00:24:37,590 --> 00:24:35,470
and there's no body there's no chest

596
00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:37,600
there's no tools there's nothing down

597
00:24:42,090 --> 00:24:39,760
there it was a you know artifacts of the

598
00:24:44,790 --> 00:24:42,100
poor quality of the video camera they

599
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:44,800
use which in the time that use it was

600
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:45,850
probably the best

601
00:24:50,010 --> 00:24:48,910
they could get the technologists that

602
00:24:51,810 --> 00:24:50,020
involved what we're doing

603
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:51,820
high-definition where you can see the

604
00:24:58,770 --> 00:24:54,610
all the flaws in the actors faces on

605
00:25:00,360 --> 00:24:58,780
television now but you know so yeah I

606
00:25:03,060 --> 00:25:00,370
mean it kept things alive for a long

607
00:25:05,430 --> 00:25:03,070
time but III think they've just pretty

608
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:05,440
much run out of out of steam they've

609
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:07,450
taken as far as they can go and I don't

610
00:25:11,039 --> 00:25:08,080
know

611
00:25:14,789 --> 00:25:11,049
gonna go they're not because they're not

612
00:25:16,289 --> 00:25:14,799
gonna find a treasure so yeah I guess

613
00:25:17,610 --> 00:25:16,299
them they're gonna go as long as the

614
00:25:18,750 --> 00:25:17,620
show has ratings because otherwise I

615
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:18,760
don't think they're gonna spend money

616
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:20,530
any more money of their own that's for

617
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:22,690
sure under search well I don't think

618
00:25:25,470 --> 00:25:24,370
janus are spending their own money I

619
00:25:27,299 --> 00:25:25,480
don't think they've been spending their

620
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:27,309
own money for a long time I think for a

621
00:25:31,919 --> 00:25:29,530
long time but initially History Channel

622
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:31,929
History Channel has been financing it

623
00:25:34,490 --> 00:25:32,770
and they're probably getting well paid

624
00:25:37,980 --> 00:25:34,500
for their parts in the story and I know

625
00:25:39,779 --> 00:25:37,990
nova scotia put 1.5 million dollars into

626
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:39,789
the project too because it's bringing

627
00:25:44,549 --> 00:25:41,890
tourists into the area oh yeah they're

628
00:25:46,409 --> 00:25:44,559
making a killing yeah and so it's a wise

629
00:25:48,210 --> 00:25:46,419
investment you'll come to Oak Island and

630
00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:48,220
I'm thinking yeah on a dare or sure I'll

631
00:25:52,409 --> 00:25:50,830
be there so I mean I my good ways to go

632
00:25:55,260 --> 00:25:52,419
camping you know just to get away for a

633
00:25:59,310 --> 00:25:55,270
while but I I lost my taste for camping

634
00:26:03,299 --> 00:25:59,320
when I was in the army and we were

635
00:26:04,590 --> 00:26:03,309
forced to go camping yeah different

636
00:26:07,970 --> 00:26:04,600
perspective I was gonna say that's a

637
00:26:11,130 --> 00:26:07,980
different kind of camping too though yes

638
00:26:14,820 --> 00:26:11,140
so okay so we're getting close to the

639
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:14,830
end of the first quarter here so we

640
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:16,480
covered a lot of ground but we didn't

641
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:18,970
really start from the beginning so if

642
00:26:25,740 --> 00:26:23,130
you can let us know what this story is

643
00:26:28,669 --> 00:26:25,750
moving back to UFOs and the Lonnie

644
00:26:32,039 --> 00:26:28,679
Zamora case from Socorro New Mexico

645
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:32,049
on April 24 1964 and I give you the

646
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:34,450
dates just so that you get an idea of

647
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:37,210
how old the case is Zamora was chasing a

648
00:26:40,860 --> 00:26:38,770
speeder through Socorro when he heard a

649
00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:40,870
explosion on the outskirts of town

650
00:26:45,330 --> 00:26:43,240
he thought the Dynamo dynamite shed that

651
00:26:47,130 --> 00:26:45,340
was out there had exploded they broke

652
00:26:49,169 --> 00:26:47,140
off the chase to went to look to see

653
00:26:50,940 --> 00:26:49,179
what was the damage had been done came

654
00:26:52,950 --> 00:26:50,950
up over a rise and he saw down in the

655
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:52,960
Arroyo below him what he thought I

656
00:26:57,690 --> 00:26:54,730
thought at first was an overt or an

657
00:26:59,110 --> 00:26:57,700
overturned car and he tried to get his

658
00:27:00,790 --> 00:26:59,120
patrol car down there

659
00:27:02,230 --> 00:27:00,800
up and down a little bit finally they

660
00:27:04,420 --> 00:27:02,240
left his patrol car and walked down and

661
00:27:05,860 --> 00:27:04,430
got fairly close to to the object on

662
00:27:09,670 --> 00:27:05,870
ground and realized that it wasn't a car

663
00:27:11,670 --> 00:27:09,680
saw two beings outside the craft outside

664
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:11,680
the object whatever it might have been

665
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:13,730
who looked toward him and seemed

666
00:27:17,410 --> 00:27:15,530
startled to see him there they ran

667
00:27:20,020 --> 00:27:17,420
around behind and there was a clang like

668
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:20,030
a hatch closing and the thing you know

669
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:22,610
roar lifted off and disappeared in a

670
00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:27,710
matter of a few seconds he called one of

671
00:27:31,570 --> 00:27:29,809
his superiors sergeant Sam Chavez of the

672
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:31,580
New Mexico State Police they were

673
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:33,410
friends and he wanted Chavez to come out

674
00:27:38,350 --> 00:27:35,330
and Chevis would later say that you know

675
00:27:40,630 --> 00:27:38,360
so Mora looked as if he had seen a ghost

676
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:40,640
I mean he was just the color drained

677
00:27:46,030 --> 00:27:43,760
from his face and he was quite upset

678
00:27:47,620 --> 00:27:46,040
about this thinking that he had maybe

679
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:47,630
seen a black project something the

680
00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:48,770
government was doing and didn't want to

681
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:50,390
talk about I think she has pretty well

682
00:27:53,590 --> 00:27:52,370
had that idea as well but chef s is

683
00:27:55,780 --> 00:27:53,600
there in like two and a half minutes so

684
00:27:58,090 --> 00:27:55,790
the object is long gone from that point

685
00:28:02,860 --> 00:27:58,100
on there were people in the area on the

686
00:28:04,540 --> 00:28:02,870
scene continuously that night eventually

687
00:28:07,870 --> 00:28:04,550
you know I say eventually and you know

688
00:28:09,790 --> 00:28:07,880
an hour hour and a half later Richard

689
00:28:12,100 --> 00:28:09,800
holder who was the up range commander at

690
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:12,110
the White Sands Missile Range his duty

691
00:28:17,650 --> 00:28:13,850
station at White Sands was closer to

692
00:28:19,540 --> 00:28:17,660
Socorro than the actual base of white

693
00:28:21,610 --> 00:28:19,550
sands which is down near Alamogordo was

694
00:28:25,330 --> 00:28:21,620
so he lived in Socorro he was either

695
00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:25,340
called by his lieutenant or he was

696
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:27,110
called by the FBI agent who was there

697
00:28:33,850 --> 00:28:28,850
Arthur burns but both of them showed up

698
00:28:35,049 --> 00:28:33,860
at the Socorro Police Station by 7:20 in

699
00:28:36,940 --> 00:28:35,059
the evening

700
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:36,950
Zamora made the sighting around 6

701
00:28:43,299 --> 00:28:40,640
o'clock so and I say around 6 o'clock it

702
00:28:45,250 --> 00:28:43,309
was like 555 or something like that so

703
00:28:48,820 --> 00:28:45,260
they're there right after the thing and

704
00:28:51,850 --> 00:28:48,830
they pretty much interrogate some more

705
00:28:53,890 --> 00:28:51,860
about what he had seen suggested to him

706
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:53,900
that they may not talk about the symbol

707
00:28:59,470 --> 00:28:56,570
he he saw it he drew us they drew the

708
00:29:00,760 --> 00:28:59,480
symbol quickly after the thing

709
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:00,770
disappeared so he wouldn't forget what

710
00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:02,690
it looked like on a scrap of paper and

711
00:29:06,820 --> 00:29:04,640
then later he drew it for holder signed

712
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:06,830
his name to both you guys know that on

713
00:29:10,990 --> 00:29:08,450
the scene when did he take it out of his

714
00:29:12,549 --> 00:29:11,000
yeah yeah but he was sitting in his

715
00:29:14,619 --> 00:29:12,559
vehicle and he had a scrap of paper

716
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:14,629
and he drew it right there before Chevis

717
00:29:18,639 --> 00:29:17,120
showed up so it was within literally

718
00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:18,649
within a minute or two of the object

719
00:29:23,169 --> 00:29:20,720
disappearing and then he drew it later

720
00:29:24,460 --> 00:29:23,179
for a holder and signed his name to it

721
00:29:25,950 --> 00:29:24,470
signed his name to both of those so we

722
00:29:28,090 --> 00:29:25,960
have that

723
00:29:29,379 --> 00:29:28,100
okay well let's let's hold it right

724
00:29:30,850 --> 00:29:29,389
there we'll pick up guy rest of the

725
00:29:33,249 --> 00:29:30,860
story when we come back after this first

726
00:29:35,019 --> 00:29:33,259
break I'm speaking with author Kevin

727
00:29:37,330 --> 00:29:35,029
Randall encounter in the desert the case

728
00:29:39,039 --> 00:29:37,340
for alien contact at Socorro this is

729
00:29:41,499 --> 00:29:39,049
Alan B Smith for inception reading

730
00:29:42,940 --> 00:29:41,509
network on paranormal now first that

731
00:29:54,009 --> 00:29:42,950
power mode now on the inception radio

732
00:29:59,079 --> 00:29:56,299
paranormal now this is Alan B Smith your

733
00:30:01,489 --> 00:29:59,089
host and my guest tonight is Kevin Dean

734
00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:01,499
Randall author of encounter in the

735
00:30:05,959 --> 00:30:03,329
desert the case for alien contact at

736
00:30:08,779 --> 00:30:05,969
Socorro and taking us out of the break

737
00:30:09,919 --> 00:30:08,789
was something happened on the way to

738
00:30:13,399 --> 00:30:09,929
heaven by Phil Collins

739
00:30:17,509 --> 00:30:13,409
alright so Kevin we essentially we left

740
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:17,519
off where Lonnie Zamora during the was

741
00:30:27,529 --> 00:30:24,570
April 26 1960 24 24 24 94 yep he saw

742
00:30:29,719 --> 00:30:27,539
this the crash seemingly crashed perhaps

743
00:30:32,539 --> 00:30:29,729
a landing no no no landing a landing

744
00:30:33,769 --> 00:30:32,549
landing yeah landing so there's no there

745
00:30:35,859 --> 00:30:33,779
was no there's no room to believe there

746
00:30:37,969 --> 00:30:35,869
was it was a crash landing of sorts

747
00:30:39,589 --> 00:30:37,979
meaning it was wasn't something

748
00:30:41,869 --> 00:30:39,599
problematic it was a controlled landing

749
00:30:44,989 --> 00:30:41,879
it was a controlled landing but it could

750
00:30:46,339 --> 00:30:44,999
be what we in the military used to call

751
00:30:47,479 --> 00:30:46,349
a forced landing which means something

752
00:30:50,659 --> 00:30:47,489
went wrong and you had to lay on the

753
00:30:52,849 --> 00:30:50,669
airplane the aircraft that makes more

754
00:30:55,099 --> 00:30:52,859
loosely which is not to say that you

755
00:30:58,569 --> 00:30:55,109
couldn't then fly it off and obviously

756
00:31:02,329 --> 00:30:58,579
they did but where we left off we had

757
00:31:04,009 --> 00:31:02,339
Arthur burns and Richard holder talking

758
00:31:07,639 --> 00:31:04,019
to Zamora in the police station that

759
00:31:09,319 --> 00:31:07,649
very night within 90 minutes of him

760
00:31:11,419 --> 00:31:09,329
seeing the object talking to him about

761
00:31:13,310 --> 00:31:11,429
what he'd seen getting getting the idea

762
00:31:15,139 --> 00:31:13,320
of what he'd seen suggesting he not talk

763
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:15,149
about the symbol suggesting he not talk

764
00:31:19,849 --> 00:31:18,570
about the beings that he saw not that

765
00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:19,859
they're attempting to suppress the

766
00:31:24,589 --> 00:31:21,089
information I only want to make that

767
00:31:25,909 --> 00:31:24,599
clear because with the project Bluebook

768
00:31:26,959 --> 00:31:25,919
eventually getting involved in all that

769
00:31:28,489 --> 00:31:26,969
there's an idea that there was

770
00:31:30,889 --> 00:31:28,499
suppression of information out he didn't

771
00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:30,899
really see any of that here they were

772
00:31:35,019 --> 00:31:32,369
they were thinking more of Lonnie Zamora

773
00:31:39,499 --> 00:31:35,029
and a way of validating other sightings

774
00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:39,509
but Holder wrote a report that very

775
00:31:44,029 --> 00:31:41,849
night and sent it off it's only about a

776
00:31:45,409 --> 00:31:44,039
half page single-spaced now when I was

777
00:31:48,499 --> 00:31:45,419
doing my radio show I had two guys on

778
00:31:50,299 --> 00:31:48,509
Ben moss and Tony Angie Ola and they

779
00:31:51,859 --> 00:31:50,309
said that the motor wasn't they only say

780
00:31:53,209 --> 00:31:51,869
one to sell the object you know because

781
00:31:54,889 --> 00:31:53,219
I'd always complained that the problem

782
00:31:58,009 --> 00:31:54,899
with the sighting is a single witness we

783
00:31:59,449 --> 00:31:58,019
don't have another witness and they said

784
00:32:02,599 --> 00:31:59,459
no no three people saw the object in the

785
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:02,609
sky before Zamora saw it landed and and

786
00:32:05,149 --> 00:32:04,769
it had called the police station about I

787
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:05,159
said

788
00:32:08,899 --> 00:32:07,049
did you check the police logs did you

789
00:32:10,339 --> 00:32:08,909
get the police records I said no or they

790
00:32:11,930 --> 00:32:10,349
didn't say no they they never really

791
00:32:15,469 --> 00:32:11,940
answered the question to my satisfaction

792
00:32:18,259 --> 00:32:15,479
which inspired me to take a look for

793
00:32:19,820 --> 00:32:18,269
more information and in doing that I

794
00:32:21,289 --> 00:32:19,830
came across in the project blue book

795
00:32:23,509 --> 00:32:21,299
files holders report that was written

796
00:32:26,149 --> 00:32:23,519
that very night and he mentions that

797
00:32:27,710 --> 00:32:26,159
three people saw the saw a blue flame or

798
00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:27,720
an object in the sky

799
00:32:34,039 --> 00:32:31,710
prior to Zamora seeing it landed so now

800
00:32:35,659 --> 00:32:34,049
we have documented evidence that there

801
00:32:37,999 --> 00:32:35,669
were other people who saw the thing and

802
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:38,009
called the police station the problem is

803
00:32:42,529 --> 00:32:39,570
the police dispatcher didn't take their

804
00:32:45,729 --> 00:32:42,539
names he just said it just kind of blew

805
00:32:49,430 --> 00:32:45,739
the whole thing off what annoys me now

806
00:32:51,169 --> 00:32:49,440
sitting here is Jim and Carr Lorenzen

807
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:51,179
went to went to Socorro within 48 hours

808
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:54,210
they're there talking to sue Mora you

809
00:32:59,149 --> 00:32:56,970
have sergeant moody who is a project

810
00:33:00,830 --> 00:32:59,159
Bluebook investigator in 1964 he's there

811
00:33:04,999 --> 00:33:00,840
within a couple of days he's there with

812
00:33:08,570 --> 00:33:05,009
Allen Hynek who was the consultant ray

813
00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:08,580
Stanford who was the night cap guy he

814
00:33:14,539 --> 00:33:10,710
was there within a couple of days of the

815
00:33:16,339 --> 00:33:14,549
sighting all of them talked to all of

816
00:33:18,859 --> 00:33:16,349
these people and Zamora and Chevy's and

817
00:33:20,239 --> 00:33:18,869
all of that nobody tried to find out who

818
00:33:20,769 --> 00:33:20,249
those people were that called the police

819
00:33:23,539 --> 00:33:20,779
station

820
00:33:25,489 --> 00:33:23,549
Sakura wasn't that big the flight path

821
00:33:27,769 --> 00:33:25,499
was pretty well known it wouldn't have

822
00:33:29,330 --> 00:33:27,779
been all that hard to go out into the

823
00:33:32,749 --> 00:33:29,340
neighborhood and knock on some doors and

824
00:33:35,749 --> 00:33:32,759
see what others might have seen but the

825
00:33:39,799 --> 00:33:35,759
important point is Holder mentions the

826
00:33:41,479 --> 00:33:39,809
phone calls too in his report to the

827
00:33:43,599 --> 00:33:41,489
Pentagon I think it would went to one of

828
00:33:46,159 --> 00:33:43,609
the command posts in the Pentagon and

829
00:33:48,859 --> 00:33:46,169
that documents that there were other

830
00:33:50,810 --> 00:33:48,869
witnesses to the sighting later on that

831
00:33:53,119 --> 00:33:50,820
evening there's a couple of other people

832
00:33:55,789 --> 00:33:53,129
who saw an object away from Socorro but

833
00:33:58,070 --> 00:33:55,799
it was still in New Mexico and we have

834
00:34:00,739 --> 00:33:58,080
some of those names there was a person

835
00:34:03,289 --> 00:34:00,749
who called a TV station in Albuquerque

836
00:34:06,139 --> 00:34:03,299
and corrals not that far south of

837
00:34:07,339 --> 00:34:06,149
Albuquerque talking about this but they

838
00:34:08,750 --> 00:34:07,349
didn't bother to write down the name

839
00:34:11,659 --> 00:34:08,760
because nobody knew what was going on

840
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:11,669
and blew that off and then the next day

841
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:15,690
I think it was in La Madera New Mexico

842
00:34:19,010 --> 00:34:16,770
there was another land

843
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:19,020
and the object seems to be pretty much

844
00:34:23,899 --> 00:34:21,210
the same as the one that Zamora saw and

845
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:23,909
when it took off it left the burned area

846
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:25,530
like it did in Socorro and that was

847
00:34:29,659 --> 00:34:27,090
another point I'll get to in a moment

848
00:34:32,149 --> 00:34:29,669
but it took off left the burned area

849
00:34:34,669 --> 00:34:32,159
the guy who reported it reported to the

850
00:34:35,659 --> 00:34:34,679
sheriff before he'd learned before he

851
00:34:37,790 --> 00:34:35,669
and the sheriff had learned about the

852
00:34:40,810 --> 00:34:37,800
Socorro sighting so it's an interesting

853
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:40,820
bit of corroboration there at the

854
00:34:45,649 --> 00:34:43,200
landing site in Socorro there were four

855
00:34:47,359 --> 00:34:45,659
landing pad marks and they clearly

856
00:34:49,580 --> 00:34:47,369
weren't excavations they were pressed

857
00:34:53,119 --> 00:34:49,590
into the soil and when the thing left

858
00:34:57,050 --> 00:34:53,129
off it burned part of a bush and some

859
00:34:58,820 --> 00:34:57,060
scrub grass around around that site but

860
00:35:00,920 --> 00:34:58,830
interesting Chavez said that when he

861
00:35:03,530 --> 00:35:00,930
went down and felt the bush it wasn't

862
00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:03,540
warm it was still smoking but it wasn't

863
00:35:10,250 --> 00:35:06,510
warm and chemical analysis showed no

864
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:10,260
sort of a petrochemical reaction there

865
00:35:14,510 --> 00:35:12,330
or any kind of accelerant that might

866
00:35:16,940 --> 00:35:14,520
have been used to to burn the bore so

867
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:16,950
that was kind of a conundrum for them so

868
00:35:23,530 --> 00:35:18,810
you have the physical evidence of the

869
00:35:26,570 --> 00:35:23,540
the landing imprints and harder and

870
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:26,580
burns and everybody else on there's

871
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:27,810
pictures of them there's pictures of

872
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:29,310
them in the book that I got from the Air

873
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:31,530
Force as a matter of fact from the Air

874
00:35:36,410 --> 00:35:34,650
Force file so it's you know there was

875
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:36,420
physical evidence left behind it wasn't

876
00:35:39,020 --> 00:35:37,650
well I just saw this thing and it took

877
00:35:40,730 --> 00:35:39,030
off there was nothing left behind there

878
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:40,740
was actually things left behind the

879
00:35:44,570 --> 00:35:42,450
analysis of the soil samples and all

880
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:44,580
that didn't reveal any radiation didn't

881
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:47,280
reveal any accelerants didn't reveal any

882
00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:50,010
petrol chemicals that would cause the

883
00:35:53,990 --> 00:35:51,359
burns anything that would cause the

884
00:35:57,980 --> 00:35:54,000
burns so that was kind of a mystery

885
00:36:00,080 --> 00:35:57,990
there as well up in la Madera there was

886
00:36:02,180 --> 00:36:00,090
a melded pop bottle associated with this

887
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:02,190
thing and I mentioned that only because

888
00:36:07,340 --> 00:36:04,410
it's important in another aspect there

889
00:36:10,430 --> 00:36:07,350
were two guys from Dubuque Iowa and in

890
00:36:12,290 --> 00:36:10,440
this landing took place on a Friday

891
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:12,300
evening in the Wednesday morning

892
00:36:16,820 --> 00:36:14,850
newspaper so it's less than a week after

893
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:16,830
the landing there's a story about these

894
00:36:22,130 --> 00:36:19,530
two guys who had seen the object in

895
00:36:23,630 --> 00:36:22,140
Socorro and they described what they had

896
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:23,640
seen it doesn't really match the

897
00:36:30,140 --> 00:36:27,570
descriptions that Zamora gave which is a

898
00:36:33,289 --> 00:36:30,150
pretty tale tale signed there but they

899
00:36:35,839 --> 00:36:33,299
mentioned the melted pop bottle and I'm

900
00:36:38,510 --> 00:36:35,849
thinking what happened they their story

901
00:36:40,970 --> 00:36:38,520
was they were driving through Socorro at

902
00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:40,980
the time the object took off and they

903
00:36:47,299 --> 00:36:43,710
saw it in the air and they they knew the

904
00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:47,309
roads but their description doesn't fit

905
00:36:52,130 --> 00:36:49,680
with what Zamora said and they described

906
00:36:54,260 --> 00:36:52,140
the melted pop bottle and that's the

907
00:36:57,500 --> 00:36:54,270
wrong sighting and I think that kind of

908
00:36:58,549 --> 00:36:57,510
negates their testimony and I think it's

909
00:36:59,779 --> 00:36:58,559
important to look at that you know you

910
00:37:02,630 --> 00:36:59,789
said well there's all these people that

911
00:37:04,220 --> 00:37:02,640
you know said they were there these two

912
00:37:06,620 --> 00:37:04,230
guys probably weren't they made up the

913
00:37:08,870 --> 00:37:06,630
story I searched for him as we were

914
00:37:10,309 --> 00:37:08,880
doing as I was doing the book I know

915
00:37:13,279 --> 00:37:10,319
some others have searched form and

916
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:13,289
haven't found them a fellow here in Iowa

917
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:14,880
named Ralph DeGraw talked to him about

918
00:37:21,980 --> 00:37:18,210
10 years after the sighting and the

919
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:21,990
information from from his investigation

920
00:37:26,059 --> 00:37:23,970
is in the the MUFON Journal and I don't

921
00:37:28,099 --> 00:37:26,069
remember the the date off the top of my

922
00:37:30,829 --> 00:37:28,109
head but cleverly it's footnoted in the

923
00:37:33,769 --> 00:37:30,839
book so that you can you can look that

924
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:33,779
up as well and see what what DeGraw

925
00:37:36,710 --> 00:37:35,130
learned from these guys and he was

926
00:37:39,559 --> 00:37:36,720
pretty well convinced that they probably

927
00:37:41,690 --> 00:37:39,569
warned they've all involved either but

928
00:37:44,180 --> 00:37:41,700
there are people who were involved there

929
00:37:47,329 --> 00:37:44,190
was a tourist and they said they were

930
00:37:48,799 --> 00:37:47,339
driving a green Cadillac and they

931
00:37:50,809 --> 00:37:48,809
stopped at the gas station and had a

932
00:37:52,660 --> 00:37:50,819
discussion with a felony Oprah grinder

933
00:37:54,980 --> 00:37:52,670
who was the manager of the gas station

934
00:37:57,470 --> 00:37:54,990
talking about how you had your aircraft

935
00:37:59,240 --> 00:37:57,480
fly pretty low around here and then they

936
00:38:02,359 --> 00:37:59,250
got in their car took off now they

937
00:38:04,220 --> 00:38:02,369
looked for those people and there was no

938
00:38:05,390 --> 00:38:04,230
credit-card receipt you know in today's

939
00:38:07,309 --> 00:38:05,400
environment everybody would have been

940
00:38:10,190 --> 00:38:07,319
paying with a credit card security

941
00:38:11,809 --> 00:38:10,200
cameras oh oh absolutely yeah they've

942
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:11,819
been always of tracing these but but in

943
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:14,010
1964 not so much it was a green Cadillac

944
00:38:17,510 --> 00:38:15,210
and they thought it was from Colorado

945
00:38:19,789 --> 00:38:17,520
and I'd always laughingly said you know

946
00:38:23,660 --> 00:38:19,799
I grew up in Colorado so I was living in

947
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:23,670
Colorado in 1964 and I said but I didn't

948
00:38:27,319 --> 00:38:25,710
have a college a Cadillac I got yeah I

949
00:38:30,289 --> 00:38:27,329
did have a Cadillac when I was in high

950
00:38:33,589 --> 00:38:30,299
school it was like you know 20 years old

951
00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:33,599
but it was a Cadillac so it could have

952
00:38:38,599 --> 00:38:36,660
been me but it wasn't and my car was

953
00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:38,609
blue and not green but later the point

954
00:38:43,180 --> 00:38:42,089
is those people never came forward the

955
00:38:44,620 --> 00:38:43,190
people who

956
00:38:45,910 --> 00:38:44,630
call the police never came forward and I

957
00:38:47,260 --> 00:38:45,920
found that pretty strange especially

958
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:47,270
after it started getting some publicity

959
00:38:51,700 --> 00:38:49,490
and I'm wondering if a tone of some of

960
00:38:53,740 --> 00:38:51,710
the newspaper articles didn't convince

961
00:38:55,780 --> 00:38:53,750
the people not to say me think about it

962
00:38:58,990 --> 00:38:55,790
you know it's astonishing that somebody

963
00:39:01,329 --> 00:38:59,000
didn't come forward and talk about what

964
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:01,339
they had seen back in July of nineteen

965
00:39:07,300 --> 00:39:04,970
I'm sorry April of 1960 64 I I just

966
00:39:10,780 --> 00:39:07,310
don't understand that but clearly they

967
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:10,790
haven't I was talking to Ray Stanford

968
00:39:16,780 --> 00:39:14,210
and he said that while he was in the in

969
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:16,790
Socorro with the radio announcer who had

970
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:18,650
interviewed a number of people this was

971
00:39:23,319 --> 00:39:21,170
not long after the event and the two

972
00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:23,329
older women came up to him talking about

973
00:39:28,870 --> 00:39:26,960
having heard that heard the roar and I

974
00:39:29,950 --> 00:39:28,880
said to Ray do you have their names and

975
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:29,960
he said well they were old ladies are

976
00:39:35,260 --> 00:39:31,490
probably dead by now and I'm thinking

977
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:35,270
yeah but if we had the names we might be

978
00:39:38,290 --> 00:39:36,650
able to find out where they lived and

979
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:38,300
there might be somebody around who was

980
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:41,690
around in 1964 that we could talk to a

981
00:39:50,260 --> 00:39:45,890
loss a long shot at best I mean you're a

982
00:39:52,599 --> 00:39:50,270
teenager in 1964 as was I do you know

983
00:39:57,460 --> 00:39:52,609
why very Stanford why he did not have

984
00:40:00,180 --> 00:39:57,470
the names available did he never had but

985
00:40:03,130 --> 00:40:00,190
his if his files are anything like mine

986
00:40:08,290 --> 00:40:03,140
you know the accumulation of 50 or 60

987
00:40:10,420 --> 00:40:08,300
years of UFO research and and you know

988
00:40:13,059 --> 00:40:10,430
we're not we're not librarians so it's

989
00:40:14,620 --> 00:40:13,069
not well catalogued from what from what

990
00:40:15,339 --> 00:40:14,630
I understand his is even worse cataloged

991
00:40:17,380 --> 00:40:15,349
than mine

992
00:40:18,849 --> 00:40:17,390
and he just didn't he had written the

993
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:18,859
names down but he just didn't know where

994
00:40:22,930 --> 00:40:21,650
to find him and so you know I was kind

995
00:40:24,339 --> 00:40:22,940
of a lead that went nowhere but I'm

996
00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:24,349
thinking you know if we if we had the

997
00:40:28,839 --> 00:40:26,510
names and we could get ahold of a

998
00:40:32,140 --> 00:40:28,849
phonebook from 1964 which is not that

999
00:40:34,059 --> 00:40:32,150
hard of a task with libraries and

1000
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:34,069
everything you know and for the for the

1001
00:40:37,930 --> 00:40:35,810
Millennials out there phonebook is this

1002
00:40:39,550 --> 00:40:37,940
document used to get in the MIT once a

1003
00:40:40,780 --> 00:40:39,560
year and everybody's telephone I'm ready

1004
00:40:42,420 --> 00:40:40,790
to just look it up but it was only for

1005
00:40:44,710 --> 00:40:42,430
your local town

1006
00:40:46,660 --> 00:40:44,720
unlike type somebody's name into the

1007
00:40:49,900 --> 00:40:46,670
internet and you can get nine hundred

1008
00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:49,910
people with the same name but you know

1009
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:52,310
you you could you could find out where

1010
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:54,530
they live the the the section of Socorro

1011
00:40:56,500 --> 00:40:55,970
they lived in and see if you couldn't

1012
00:40:59,040 --> 00:40:56,510
maybe

1013
00:41:01,180 --> 00:40:59,050
find somebody who had been there since

1014
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:01,190
1964 that could tell you something about

1015
00:41:05,470 --> 00:41:03,650
that but that was just it's just one of

1016
00:41:07,870 --> 00:41:05,480
those things that you know we're now 50

1017
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:07,880
more than 50 years down the road and

1018
00:41:13,030 --> 00:41:09,770
it's a really difficult task to go back

1019
00:41:15,250 --> 00:41:13,040
that far and find people who might have

1020
00:41:16,990 --> 00:41:15,260
some kind of knowledge that hadn't

1021
00:41:21,370 --> 00:41:17,000
talked to it's talked about it since

1022
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:21,380
simply because of all the publicity you

1023
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:22,610
would think that they would have said

1024
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:24,890
something by now if they had any

1025
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:27,650
information to share tell me well I mean

1026
00:41:31,270 --> 00:41:29,210
fact then the closest thing you had to

1027
00:41:34,180 --> 00:41:31,280
the Internet would be the operators who

1028
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:34,190
kind of served as your search engine you

1029
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:35,450
know you could you could call and say

1030
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:36,170
I'm trying to get in touch with

1031
00:41:41,140 --> 00:41:38,090
so-and-so in a town and they would

1032
00:41:43,930 --> 00:41:41,150
actually try to find that person for you

1033
00:41:46,150 --> 00:41:43,940
if I actually got bill Brasil's

1034
00:41:49,570 --> 00:41:46,160
telephone number bill Brazel from the

1035
00:41:52,990 --> 00:41:49,580
Roswell case and I called up and I had

1036
00:41:56,410 --> 00:41:53,000
the wrong town and the operator said oh

1037
00:41:58,810 --> 00:41:56,420
there's a bill Brazel living over in and

1038
00:41:59,980 --> 00:41:58,820
I I said well that's got to be the guy

1039
00:42:03,190 --> 00:41:59,990
and I called him and it was I mean

1040
00:42:04,810 --> 00:42:03,200
somebody's she's helping me I don't even

1041
00:42:05,830 --> 00:42:04,820
have the right town and she manages to

1042
00:42:09,250 --> 00:42:05,840
find the guy for me

1043
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:09,260
this was this was in the late 80s and I

1044
00:42:16,210 --> 00:42:13,810
sent a letter to a building in New York

1045
00:42:17,740 --> 00:42:16,220
you know a skyscraper of course but a

1046
00:42:18,850 --> 00:42:17,750
building in New York and I'd had the

1047
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:18,860
wrong floor and they sent it back

1048
00:42:22,690 --> 00:42:20,330
because it because they couldn't find

1049
00:42:24,790 --> 00:42:22,700
out they couldn't find the person I'm

1050
00:42:27,190 --> 00:42:24,800
thinking you got it narrowed down to a

1051
00:42:29,260 --> 00:42:27,200
building you can't find it the operator

1052
00:42:33,220 --> 00:42:29,270
I've got it narrowed down to New Mexico

1053
00:42:36,310 --> 00:42:33,230
and finds the guy for me and I talked to

1054
00:42:40,450 --> 00:42:36,320
bill he was a he was again reticent to

1055
00:42:42,700 --> 00:42:40,460
talk but when - Minh I went to to me

1056
00:42:44,650 --> 00:42:42,710
with him he you know he we kind of

1057
00:42:46,420 --> 00:42:44,660
chatted for a while he finally opened up

1058
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:46,430
to us they told us that you know he told

1059
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:47,930
his wife Shirley that if he like this

1060
00:42:51,730 --> 00:42:49,520
he'd help us out and if he didn't he'd

1061
00:42:54,820 --> 00:42:51,740
just end the conversation so he liked us

1062
00:42:58,380 --> 00:42:54,830
and so we're back there again and I know

1063
00:43:01,000 --> 00:42:58,390
I'm off on to a rose well again but

1064
00:43:02,350 --> 00:43:01,010
because this is kind of funny so we meet

1065
00:43:03,820 --> 00:43:02,360
him at 8 o'clock in the morning to go

1066
00:43:05,380 --> 00:43:03,830
out to the debris field where he'd found

1067
00:43:08,170 --> 00:43:05,390
some bits of the pieces of the debris

1068
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:08,180
and we're driving down the road and he

1069
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:09,890
says you boys want a beer

1070
00:43:14,260 --> 00:43:12,800
I think it's 8 o'clock in the morning

1071
00:43:17,260 --> 00:43:14,270
and Don says no no thank you

1072
00:43:18,820 --> 00:43:17,270
and I'm thinking you know somebody ought

1073
00:43:20,590 --> 00:43:18,830
to drink a beer for this guy so I said

1074
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:20,600
yeah I'll have a beer so I'm drinking

1075
00:43:24,990 --> 00:43:22,370
warm beer driving through Mexico New

1076
00:43:27,340 --> 00:43:25,000
Mexico at 8 o'clock in the morning so

1077
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:27,350
but we got out to the place and looked

1078
00:43:31,660 --> 00:43:29,570
around and you know Bill was a go as a

1079
00:43:35,110 --> 00:43:31,670
great guy helped us out as much as he

1080
00:43:37,450 --> 00:43:35,120
could so yeah I mean that's a

1081
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:37,460
fascinating story and it reminded me um

1082
00:43:47,590 --> 00:43:43,130
my father was actually uh adopted and he

1083
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:47,600
he found out that he was adopted when he

1084
00:43:52,060 --> 00:43:50,810
was 12 or 13 he had gotten ahold of some

1085
00:43:55,390 --> 00:43:52,070
person cific original birth certificate

1086
00:43:58,690 --> 00:43:55,400
document in the attic or somewhere in

1087
00:44:01,840 --> 00:43:58,700
his house and he never told his mother

1088
00:44:03,610 --> 00:44:01,850
that he knew until she passed and she

1089
00:44:06,820 --> 00:44:03,620
was 80 something when she passed well

1090
00:44:08,350 --> 00:44:06,830
his mother or his adoptive mother he

1091
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:08,360
found it well he never told his birth

1092
00:44:12,210 --> 00:44:10,160
mother I mean his I'm sorry he never

1093
00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:12,220
told his adopted mother that he was

1094
00:44:19,420 --> 00:44:16,640
adopted so they never told him into his

1095
00:44:21,910 --> 00:44:19,430
adulthood that he was adopted and he

1096
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:21,920
never brought it up and so it wasn't

1097
00:44:25,210 --> 00:44:23,210
until after my grandmother passed away

1098
00:44:27,310 --> 00:44:25,220
then he told my grandfather look I've

1099
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:27,320
known for at that point it must have

1100
00:44:33,370 --> 00:44:31,970
been 30 30 years and so he told my

1101
00:44:36,910 --> 00:44:33,380
grandfather look I I want to look for

1102
00:44:39,850 --> 00:44:36,920
for my biological parents so he did and

1103
00:44:41,890 --> 00:44:39,860
this was in the mid to late 90s this

1104
00:44:45,820 --> 00:44:41,900
started so the internet was not quite

1105
00:44:48,460 --> 00:44:45,830
robust so he had to do a lot of cold

1106
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:48,470
calling and requesting documents you

1107
00:44:52,270 --> 00:44:50,930
know snail mail but eventually he

1108
00:44:54,430 --> 00:44:52,280
tracked them down there was just a

1109
00:44:56,140 --> 00:44:54,440
matter of making those last phone calls

1110
00:44:58,450 --> 00:44:56,150
and someone saying nope not this person

1111
00:45:00,120 --> 00:44:58,460
you got to call this person and and he

1112
00:45:03,070 --> 00:45:00,130
did you know he found that his family

1113
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:03,080
well moving this back to Socorro mm-hmm

1114
00:45:09,190 --> 00:45:06,650
thank you because because what you were

1115
00:45:11,350 --> 00:45:09,200
telling me fits into this so I am

1116
00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:11,360
talking to Ben moss and Tony angioma and

1117
00:45:13,870 --> 00:45:12,560
they're talking about the symbol they

1118
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:13,880
saw and there's some discrepancy about

1119
00:45:18,010 --> 00:45:16,610
the symbol that's a Mora saw and there's

1120
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:18,020
some discrepancy about me so we have to

1121
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:19,370
understand we have the real symbol from

1122
00:45:23,559 --> 00:45:21,530
the real files of this and I'm talking

1123
00:45:26,380 --> 00:45:23,569
to him about this they said

1124
00:45:29,170 --> 00:45:26,390
Faline Rob Mercer has them he's a UFO

1125
00:45:30,489 --> 00:45:29,180
researcher from Ohio so I called Rob

1126
00:45:33,459 --> 00:45:30,499
Mercer and I said what are you talking

1127
00:45:36,579 --> 00:45:33,469
about and he said well he periodically

1128
00:45:37,989 --> 00:45:36,589
would look at craigslist to see if there

1129
00:45:39,279 --> 00:45:37,999
was UFO material on there because

1130
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:39,289
sometimes it pops up and he found

1131
00:45:44,259 --> 00:45:42,170
somebody offering a box of Project Blue

1132
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:44,269
Book documents so he paid the guy $100

1133
00:45:49,269 --> 00:45:46,130
and got the documents and what one of

1134
00:45:53,439 --> 00:45:49,279
the things in this box was a huge file

1135
00:45:58,089 --> 00:45:53,449
on the Socorro case which doesn't

1136
00:46:01,120 --> 00:45:58,099
exactly match the official file and he

1137
00:46:03,519 --> 00:46:01,130
said Mercer said so he talked to the guy

1138
00:46:06,009 --> 00:46:03,529
who'd about bought the box and the guy

1139
00:46:08,289 --> 00:46:06,019
said well he had bought a load of lumber

1140
00:46:09,969 --> 00:46:08,299
to garage sale and this box had been

1141
00:46:13,150 --> 00:46:09,979
hidden behind the lumber and he took it

1142
00:46:15,309 --> 00:46:13,160
took the box with the lumber and when he

1143
00:46:19,989 --> 00:46:15,319
looked and he knew that nobody wanted so

1144
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:19,999
Mercer finds out who owned the house or

1145
00:46:23,469 --> 00:46:21,410
whether where the guy bought the box who

1146
00:46:26,469 --> 00:46:23,479
owns the house talked to him found the

1147
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:26,479
owner of it beforehand tracked the guys

1148
00:46:30,849 --> 00:46:27,650
down turned out the guy's name was

1149
00:46:33,009 --> 00:46:30,859
Carmen Morano track the guy down Carmen

1150
00:46:35,019 --> 00:46:33,019
Morano and technically was the last

1151
00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:35,029
chief of project Bluebook

1152
00:46:39,789 --> 00:46:37,609
I think he took over when Hector

1153
00:46:43,299 --> 00:46:39,799
quintanilla left but the but the thing

1154
00:46:45,370 --> 00:46:43,309
is through the detective work by

1155
00:46:47,439 --> 00:46:45,380
checking tax records and all of us he

1156
00:46:49,539 --> 00:46:47,449
found out who the owner of the house was

1157
00:46:51,249 --> 00:46:49,549
managed to track down the guy who had

1158
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:51,259
saved the box and got the whole story of

1159
00:46:56,709 --> 00:46:55,249
the box because of the tenacity he had a

1160
00:46:58,329 --> 00:46:56,719
little bit easier than your father did

1161
00:46:59,499 --> 00:46:58,339
because he's working with the internet

1162
00:47:01,329 --> 00:46:59,509
and that sort of thing in today's

1163
00:47:03,219 --> 00:47:01,339
environment but I think what an

1164
00:47:05,650 --> 00:47:03,229
incredible piece of detective work to be

1165
00:47:07,689 --> 00:47:05,660
able to get to the box and then find the

1166
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:07,699
guy and he talked to him about said

1167
00:47:12,099 --> 00:47:09,170
what's the deal with these with these

1168
00:47:14,799 --> 00:47:12,109
records and he said well as blue book

1169
00:47:16,839 --> 00:47:14,809
was being closed down in 1969 there were

1170
00:47:18,009 --> 00:47:16,849
all these files that were not part of

1171
00:47:19,479 --> 00:47:18,019
the official files he said they were

1172
00:47:22,509 --> 00:47:19,489
created by others who had been at

1173
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:22,519
Project Blue Book and yeah as a way of

1174
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:25,130
providing information to people who came

1175
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:28,130
to look at Project Blue Boar notes like

1176
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:31,729
yeah well but what he had was like 200

1177
00:47:37,420 --> 00:47:35,650
pages for the Socorro case yeah yeah and

1178
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:37,430
so I was able to match

1179
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:39,170
with the official record as well so I

1180
00:47:43,750 --> 00:47:40,250
know I know what with the different

1181
00:47:47,410 --> 00:47:43,760
discrepancies were but but I mean so he

1182
00:47:51,099 --> 00:47:47,420
he had found all this information that

1183
00:47:53,559 --> 00:47:51,109
had been collected into a non classified

1184
00:47:55,349 --> 00:47:53,569
file actually he's not much in the plug

1185
00:48:01,359 --> 00:47:55,359
a blue bow files or was ever classified

1186
00:48:03,970 --> 00:48:01,369
but so he the Mercer or I'm sorry Murano

1187
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:03,980
had said that you know there was all

1188
00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:05,930
this information that was collected for

1189
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:07,730
easy access for reporters you know

1190
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:09,290
they'd ask him they'd ask about specific

1191
00:48:11,980 --> 00:48:11,450
cases I mean you can imagine if you're a

1192
00:48:15,910 --> 00:48:11,990
reporter

1193
00:48:16,780 --> 00:48:15,920
in in late 1960s going to Project Blue

1194
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:16,790
Book you're going to want to know about

1195
00:48:20,380 --> 00:48:18,890
the Socorro case so they had collected

1196
00:48:21,790 --> 00:48:20,390
all this stuff out of the official files

1197
00:48:23,380 --> 00:48:21,800
and put it in like to a loose-leaf

1198
00:48:25,089 --> 00:48:23,390
binder so that they could flip through

1199
00:48:26,819 --> 00:48:25,099
it did the same thing with photographs

1200
00:48:29,650 --> 00:48:26,829
in other cases that were well-known

1201
00:48:30,849 --> 00:48:29,660
level and sparks you know the level and

1202
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:30,859
case would be another one that people

1203
00:48:35,500 --> 00:48:33,170
would have asked about and had been kept

1204
00:48:37,510 --> 00:48:35,510
in in a you know separate folders for

1205
00:48:40,359 --> 00:48:37,520
the ease of accessing information we had

1206
00:48:42,190 --> 00:48:40,369
a lot of that kind of information but

1207
00:48:44,740 --> 00:48:42,200
the Socorro case was was one of those

1208
00:48:48,130 --> 00:48:44,750
documents in some of the pictures in the

1209
00:48:51,010 --> 00:48:48,140
book are actually from that that file

1210
00:48:52,630 --> 00:48:51,020
that Morano found and I had to Mercer

1211
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:52,640
found and I had a nice conversation with

1212
00:48:56,109 --> 00:48:54,650
Morano about what was going on in Blue

1213
00:48:58,960 --> 00:48:56,119
Book at the end of Project Blue Book and

1214
00:49:00,760 --> 00:48:58,970
how they conducted the operation and the

1215
00:49:02,910 --> 00:49:00,770
investigations toward the end of Project

1216
00:49:07,260 --> 00:49:02,920
Blue Book and I say I think that

1217
00:49:09,309 --> 00:49:07,270
technically Morano ended up as the last

1218
00:49:10,990 --> 00:49:09,319
it would have been the last senior

1219
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:11,000
officer a project blue book so he

1220
00:49:14,079 --> 00:49:12,290
technically would have been the head of

1221
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:14,089
it as they closed the thing down but it

1222
00:49:16,539 --> 00:49:15,290
had no more investigative

1223
00:49:19,030 --> 00:49:16,549
responsibilities or anything like that

1224
00:49:23,799 --> 00:49:19,040
it was mainly he was there to close out

1225
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:23,809
the documentation now imagine I had this

1226
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:27,170
documentation been top-secret where

1227
00:49:31,599 --> 00:49:28,970
would it be would you have ever been

1228
00:49:33,250 --> 00:49:31,609
able to find it if it had been

1229
00:49:36,339 --> 00:49:33,260
classified top-secret they would have

1230
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:36,349
done two things with it the top-secret

1231
00:49:40,210 --> 00:49:38,690
requires a vault if you've got secret

1232
00:49:41,950 --> 00:49:40,220
material you can keep it in a safe if

1233
00:49:43,539 --> 00:49:41,960
you've got top-secret material it's got

1234
00:49:46,660 --> 00:49:43,549
to be kept in a vault so you know that's

1235
00:49:49,210 --> 00:49:46,670
it's really different I have found going

1236
00:49:50,950 --> 00:49:49,220
through the documentation I have not

1237
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:50,960
found anything labeled top secret

1238
00:49:55,060 --> 00:49:53,330
I have found stuff labeled secret and

1239
00:49:56,830 --> 00:49:55,070
that's a whole different kettle of fish

1240
00:49:59,980 --> 00:49:56,840
and then stuff labeled confidential

1241
00:50:02,170 --> 00:49:59,990
which is an even lower classification

1242
00:50:05,290 --> 00:50:02,180
and then for official use only which

1243
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:05,300
even just means you'd you know use it

1244
00:50:08,740 --> 00:50:07,370
for official use you don't you know

1245
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:08,750
spread it around if you don't have to

1246
00:50:12,550 --> 00:50:10,130
but there's really no caveat against

1247
00:50:14,470 --> 00:50:12,560
talking about it but most of the stuff

1248
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:14,480
in Project Blue Book at least toward the

1249
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:16,610
end was unclassified there was no

1250
00:50:21,010 --> 00:50:18,410
classifications on it a lot of stuff and

1251
00:50:24,820 --> 00:50:21,020
the Murano had the stuff that Murano had

1252
00:50:27,340 --> 00:50:24,830
wasn't classified so you know it was

1253
00:50:28,990 --> 00:50:27,350
just derivatives of the of the regular

1254
00:50:33,370 --> 00:50:29,000
files but the cliff it would it been top

1255
00:50:35,470 --> 00:50:33,380
secret they most top secret requires a

1256
00:50:37,030 --> 00:50:35,480
review before it's downgraded secret

1257
00:50:38,530 --> 00:50:37,040
material can be drowned downgraded they

1258
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:38,540
say downgraded at three-year intervals

1259
00:50:42,220 --> 00:50:40,610
which means after three years it becomes

1260
00:50:45,310 --> 00:50:42,230
confidential and three years after that

1261
00:50:47,650 --> 00:50:45,320
it becomes basically unclassified top

1262
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:47,660
secret for the most part remains

1263
00:50:52,540 --> 00:50:49,490
classified until somebody physically

1264
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:52,550
looks at it and downgrades it and and

1265
00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:55,370
then really incumbent upon the agency we

1266
00:51:01,270 --> 00:50:58,010
that created the document to to

1267
00:51:02,860 --> 00:51:01,280
downgrade it you there are stuff from

1268
00:51:05,950 --> 00:51:02,870
World War one that is still classified

1269
00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:05,960
top secret I don't know why but nobody's

1270
00:51:09,490 --> 00:51:07,730
bothered to review it nobody's bothered

1271
00:51:11,260 --> 00:51:09,500
to downgrade it is just you know one of

1272
00:51:13,630 --> 00:51:11,270
those things the other thing that

1273
00:51:16,750 --> 00:51:13,640
happens a lot of times with classified

1274
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:16,760
materials is they're destroyed and I

1275
00:51:20,190 --> 00:51:18,530
know as an intelligence officer I

1276
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:20,200
destroyed a lot of classified material

1277
00:51:27,490 --> 00:51:24,370
what you do is if it was confidential

1278
00:51:29,670 --> 00:51:27,500
you just burned it if it was secret or

1279
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:29,680
top secret you had you had to provide

1280
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:33,170
the names of the documents you had to

1281
00:51:37,870 --> 00:51:35,930
the date of the documents and other

1282
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:37,880
identifying features of the document and

1283
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:41,090
then you needed two people to certify

1284
00:51:47,790 --> 00:51:43,690
that the document had been destroyed

1285
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:47,800
properly destroyed and what we would do

1286
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:51,050
would destroy documents that were out of

1287
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:52,490
date and the thing that springs to mind

1288
00:51:58,270 --> 00:51:56,210
is there was two versions of the CIA

1289
00:52:00,070 --> 00:51:58,280
Factbook for example which one was an

1290
00:52:03,390 --> 00:52:00,080
unclassified version and think of the

1291
00:52:04,780 --> 00:52:03,400
the CIA Factbook was basically just a

1292
00:52:07,930 --> 00:52:04,790
encyclopedia type

1293
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:07,940
entry of information about countries you

1294
00:52:14,170 --> 00:52:10,610
know give you the who the leaders were

1295
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:14,180
in that sort of thing but it was also a

1296
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:15,650
classified version that was replaced

1297
00:52:20,350 --> 00:52:17,330
every six months so he'd have to destroy

1298
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:20,360
the the old one and replace it with the

1299
00:52:24,190 --> 00:52:22,370
new one and you know I was just updated

1300
00:52:25,330 --> 00:52:24,200
material and I never found anything in

1301
00:52:27,250 --> 00:52:25,340
the classified version it was

1302
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:27,260
particularly exciting or needed to be

1303
00:52:31,930 --> 00:52:30,290
classified but I'm sure if you look far

1304
00:52:33,220 --> 00:52:31,940
enough he'd find classified material in

1305
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:33,230
there they didn't match the unclassified

1306
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:35,690
version but the point really is if there

1307
00:52:39,460 --> 00:52:37,610
was top secret material it would have

1308
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:39,470
had to been reviewed and they would have

1309
00:52:44,410 --> 00:52:42,170
decided whether or not the release of

1310
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:44,420
the material would have affected

1311
00:52:48,670 --> 00:52:46,370
national security if it was obsolete

1312
00:52:51,250 --> 00:52:48,680
material they may have just destroyed it

1313
00:52:53,350 --> 00:52:51,260
and I would think that would probably be

1314
00:52:55,810 --> 00:52:53,360
what happened with with Blue Book

1315
00:52:56,890 --> 00:52:55,820
although they kept a lot of the they

1316
00:53:00,130 --> 00:52:56,900
kept all the files they sent on a

1317
00:53:01,990 --> 00:53:00,140
Maxwell Air Force Base to the Air Force

1318
00:53:04,150 --> 00:53:02,000
archives and then Jack Webb was doing

1319
00:53:08,770 --> 00:53:04,160
this program called project UFO which

1320
00:53:11,140 --> 00:53:08,780
was a a dragnet type program as its

1321
00:53:13,300 --> 00:53:11,150
searching for investigating UFOs based

1322
00:53:15,130 --> 00:53:13,310
on the Air Force files and I could never

1323
00:53:17,710 --> 00:53:15,140
figure out what case he was basing it on

1324
00:53:21,250 --> 00:53:17,720
but the point of Jack Webb in this story

1325
00:53:23,650 --> 00:53:21,260
is that he paid to have it have the

1326
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:23,660
film's the whole Project Blue Book files

1327
00:53:29,650 --> 00:53:25,610
microfilm so he could get a copy of them

1328
00:53:31,660 --> 00:53:29,660
and that helped all of us because you

1329
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:31,670
know then then there's microfilm was

1330
00:53:33,970 --> 00:53:33,530
available of it now of course it's all

1331
00:53:36,550 --> 00:53:33,980
online

1332
00:53:37,990 --> 00:53:36,560
once once I used to say I have a

1333
00:53:39,460 --> 00:53:38,000
complete set of the Project Blue Book

1334
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:39,470
files there we go oh my god he's got a

1335
00:53:45,450 --> 00:53:41,450
complete set in today's environment yeah

1336
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:45,460
so do I it's on fold three you dummy so

1337
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:47,690
you know all that information is out

1338
00:53:50,170 --> 00:53:49,010
there but but I've noticed there are

1339
00:53:52,330 --> 00:53:50,180
things that are left out of the fold

1340
00:53:54,130 --> 00:53:52,340
three stuff that we're in the on the

1341
00:53:56,170 --> 00:53:54,140
micro films and there was and there's

1342
00:53:58,480 --> 00:53:56,180
some things that were not on the

1343
00:54:00,360 --> 00:53:58,490
microphones that that like the Socorro

1344
00:54:03,100 --> 00:54:00,370
case I found some things in there but

1345
00:54:07,870 --> 00:54:03,110
mainly unimportant stuff but there were

1346
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:07,880
some some differences simultaneous with

1347
00:54:14,740 --> 00:54:11,090
the landing you could mention la Madera

1348
00:54:15,910 --> 00:54:14,750
la Madera is about 195 miles away do you

1349
00:54:17,230 --> 00:54:15,920
know what the time difference was

1350
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:17,240
between those two sightings

1351
00:54:20,740 --> 00:54:18,170
approximately

1352
00:54:27,090 --> 00:54:20,750
uh without looking at my book as a

1353
00:54:30,940 --> 00:54:27,100
reference uh it was it was a few hours

1354
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:30,950
I'm thinking it's more like 24 maybe 48

1355
00:54:36,310 --> 00:54:33,770
I think it probably 24 because because

1356
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:36,320
neither the witness nor and the

1357
00:54:41,650 --> 00:54:39,290
witness's name is in the book and Oliver

1358
00:54:45,850 --> 00:54:41,660
something right it's it's uh it's always

1359
00:54:47,650 --> 00:54:45,860
up yeah it's always secondary case you

1360
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:47,660
know Socorro is the big one and then

1361
00:54:50,710 --> 00:54:48,770
they say oh yeah by the way law de

1362
00:54:53,620 --> 00:54:50,720
madera which I think was important to

1363
00:54:56,380 --> 00:54:53,630
discuss that case to get a feel for it

1364
00:54:59,740 --> 00:54:56,390
but I but since he the witness didn't

1365
00:55:02,650 --> 00:54:59,750
know about the Socorro case and the

1366
00:55:05,170 --> 00:55:02,660
sheriff didn't know about it suggests to

1367
00:55:07,210 --> 00:55:05,180
me and and court the timing is in the in

1368
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:07,220
the book so I probably should have a

1369
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:08,570
copy of it sitting here so I could look

1370
00:55:16,540 --> 00:55:13,970
it up but but I wasn't the news they

1371
00:55:18,970 --> 00:55:16,550
they haven't heard the news and since it

1372
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:18,980
was since it was it was news around the

1373
00:55:22,450 --> 00:55:20,690
country not long after the sighting that

1374
00:55:25,300 --> 00:55:22,460
it would have to be a very short period

1375
00:55:27,700 --> 00:55:25,310
but I'm I'm thinking it was a 24 hours

1376
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:27,710
only was 24 hours air force wrote it off

1377
00:55:32,410 --> 00:55:29,690
wrote the limited air case off as being

1378
00:55:34,660 --> 00:55:32,420
a fire in a dump right which is a

1379
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:34,670
certain I mean the the witness he

1380
00:55:39,850 --> 00:55:38,090
mentions blue flame and then later he

1381
00:55:44,170 --> 00:55:39,860
said he there was like a red or an

1382
00:55:47,140 --> 00:55:44,180
orange flare to it at the tips of the

1383
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:47,150
flame yeah similar to Socorro yes

1384
00:55:52,870 --> 00:55:51,050
exactly exactly and and and it's because

1385
00:55:55,930 --> 00:55:52,880
it's important because it's close in

1386
00:55:57,880 --> 00:55:55,940
time it's close in location and it has

1387
00:56:00,220 --> 00:55:57,890
many of the elements that Zamora

1388
00:56:03,820 --> 00:56:00,230
discussed in it as well but it always

1389
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:03,830
takes you know you read a lot of books

1390
00:56:07,450 --> 00:56:05,810
that mention the Socorro case in it and

1391
00:56:09,820 --> 00:56:07,460
they devote a few pages to it but they

1392
00:56:11,470 --> 00:56:09,830
rarely mention la Madera and it's an

1393
00:56:13,150 --> 00:56:11,480
important and important case because

1394
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:13,160
again we have another witness so we have

1395
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:16,130
something going on that that seems to

1396
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:18,050
corroborate what Lonnie Zamora said so

1397
00:56:21,070 --> 00:56:19,490
when we say you know a lot of these

1398
00:56:23,110 --> 00:56:21,080
amorous cases single witness it turns

1399
00:56:24,940 --> 00:56:23,120
out well yeah not really there are other

1400
00:56:26,380 --> 00:56:24,950
witnesses and we know about there are

1401
00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:26,390
other sightings in New Mexico around

1402
00:56:30,789 --> 00:56:28,400
that timeframe that are important and

1403
00:56:33,489 --> 00:56:30,799
there are similar cases and I just

1404
00:56:35,859 --> 00:56:33,499
some of them in the book you know

1405
00:56:37,299 --> 00:56:35,869
there's I had said for a long time that

1406
00:56:38,529 --> 00:56:37,309
there's only one case in the project

1407
00:56:41,169 --> 00:56:38,539
Bluebook files in which there are

1408
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:41,179
occupant scene and the case is labeled

1409
00:56:44,559 --> 00:56:42,410
on unidentified and that's of course

1410
00:56:46,779 --> 00:56:44,569
it's a kernel case but it turns out

1411
00:56:49,209 --> 00:56:46,789
there's actually two other cases neither

1412
00:56:53,049 --> 00:56:49,219
of them nearly as robust as the Socorro

1413
00:56:55,390 --> 00:56:53,059
case and one of them actually takes

1414
00:56:57,699 --> 00:56:55,400
place behind the Iron Curtain and and

1415
00:57:01,390 --> 00:56:57,709
the guy and his daughter eventually

1416
00:57:03,099 --> 00:57:01,400
escaped into West West Germany and told

1417
00:57:06,039 --> 00:57:03,109
the story after they escaped into West

1418
00:57:08,499 --> 00:57:06,049
Germany and it's in the blue book files

1419
00:57:10,150 --> 00:57:08,509
but it's but yeah I for the longest time

1420
00:57:12,279 --> 00:57:10,160
I said well no it's not and I was

1421
00:57:15,819 --> 00:57:12,289
looking for the case and I discovered

1422
00:57:19,029 --> 00:57:15,829
that the the date as it's given in some

1423
00:57:21,039 --> 00:57:19,039
other publications wasn't quite right

1424
00:57:22,809 --> 00:57:21,049
when I once I found them the correct

1425
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:22,819
date I was able to find the case but

1426
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:24,890
it's not in a case file it's just like

1427
00:57:28,599 --> 00:57:27,170
you said hey and I think you said

1428
00:57:31,449 --> 00:57:28,609
something like Alan Hynek

1429
00:57:33,939 --> 00:57:31,459
came across it via the CIA or something

1430
00:57:37,089 --> 00:57:33,949
yeah hold it right there we're coming up

1431
00:57:40,029 --> 00:57:37,099
to the second break speaking with Kevin

1432
00:57:43,479 --> 00:57:40,039
Randle and yeah we're talking UFOs and

1433
00:57:53,839 --> 00:57:43,489
mysteries in the New Mexico desert stay

1434
00:57:58,849 --> 00:57:56,820
and welcome back to paranormal now this

1435
00:58:01,830 --> 00:57:58,859
is LV Smith I'm your host tonight

1436
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:01,840
grateful as always to be on the irn

1437
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:06,130
airwaves and tonight my guest is Kevin

1438
00:58:11,130 --> 00:58:08,890
Randall author of encounter in the

1439
00:58:13,290 --> 00:58:11,140
desert the case for alien contact at

1440
00:58:15,780 --> 00:58:13,300
Socorro if you're listening to the

1441
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:15,790
original broadcast driving just tuning

1442
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:17,290
in this has been a fantastic

1443
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:20,890
conversation so stay tuned in and and

1444
00:58:26,609 --> 00:58:23,650
hang with us because I assure you it is

1445
00:58:29,730 --> 00:58:26,619
worth to listen antics out of the break

1446
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:29,740
was one love by Bob Marley all right so

1447
00:58:35,609 --> 00:58:33,010
let's let's bring it back again to the

1448
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:35,619
Socorro case we have a pension tonight

1449
00:58:41,490 --> 00:58:37,690
for kind of skewing off in one direction

1450
00:58:43,740 --> 00:58:41,500
another but but it all connects so we

1451
00:58:46,109 --> 00:58:43,750
had essentially as far as the core

1452
00:58:49,170 --> 00:58:46,119
aspect of the story goes really where we

1453
00:58:51,780 --> 00:58:49,180
left it off is that Sam Chavez came and

1454
00:58:54,390 --> 00:58:51,790
later we did mention that he had

1455
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:54,400
conversations about what to say and not

1456
00:59:01,170 --> 00:58:55,930
to say but if we can just pick it up

1457
00:59:04,620 --> 00:59:01,180
from Sam Chavez meets Lonnie Zamora at

1458
00:59:06,359 --> 00:59:04,630
the site and then what happens well the

1459
00:59:08,370 --> 00:59:06,369
first thing he does he parks his car

1460
00:59:09,570 --> 00:59:08,380
besides as a Morris car he looks and

1461
00:59:11,099 --> 00:59:09,580
decide to see if there's a shovel or

1462
00:59:13,170 --> 00:59:11,109
anything in there which strikes me as

1463
00:59:14,460 --> 00:59:13,180
kind of odd but Chavez said that's what

1464
00:59:15,839 --> 00:59:14,470
he did to see if there was anything like

1465
00:59:18,180 --> 00:59:15,849
that and then he walks down to the area

1466
00:59:20,609 --> 00:59:18,190
where where Lonnie Zamora is which is

1467
00:59:22,650 --> 00:59:20,619
the landing site and he sees the

1468
00:59:25,230 --> 00:59:22,660
impressions in the ground and he sees a

1469
00:59:26,579 --> 00:59:25,240
smoking bush and he makes his

1470
00:59:29,820 --> 00:59:26,589
observations there and he talks to

1471
00:59:31,980 --> 00:59:29,830
Lonnie about what is what is seen and

1472
00:59:33,420 --> 00:59:31,990
eventually others show up because

1473
00:59:35,220 --> 00:59:33,430
they've heard the calls go out over the

1474
00:59:36,570 --> 00:59:35,230
police radio Lonnie Zamora calling back

1475
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:36,580
into the Sheriff's Department or their

1476
00:59:41,250 --> 00:59:38,650
PlayStation and other scenes so other

1477
00:59:45,089 --> 00:59:41,260
people show up so there are other people

1478
00:59:46,950 --> 00:59:45,099
on the site within minutes literally

1479
00:59:48,900 --> 00:59:46,960
within minutes of the thing taking off

1480
00:59:52,460 --> 00:59:48,910
so they see see it in its pristine State

1481
00:59:58,620 --> 00:59:52,470
and that includes eventually a hardier

1482
01:00:01,380 --> 00:59:58,630
holder and burns holder calls back to

1483
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:01,390
his either the First Sergeant or one of

1484
01:00:05,190 --> 01:00:02,410
one of his lieutenant

1485
01:00:06,810 --> 01:00:05,200
and order some MPs out there to cordon

1486
01:00:08,490 --> 01:00:06,820
off the area so they kind of protect the

1487
01:00:11,010 --> 01:00:08,500
area they find the landing traces they

1488
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:11,020
they stack rocks around that so they

1489
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:16,210
won't they would remain intact the

1490
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:19,930
pictures are taken of the scene one of

1491
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:22,090
the fellows and the name escapes me it's

1492
01:00:26,250 --> 01:00:24,610
in the book took photographs in the

1493
01:00:27,870 --> 01:00:26,260
story is that when the film was

1494
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:27,880
developed it was fog as if it had been

1495
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:29,530
spoke exposed to radiation which is

1496
01:00:34,070 --> 01:00:32,170
interesting they did check for radiation

1497
01:00:36,900 --> 01:00:34,080
with Geiger counters and didn't find any

1498
01:00:39,870 --> 01:00:36,910
so uh it was just normal background

1499
01:00:41,460 --> 01:00:39,880
radiation type stuff so they kind of

1500
01:00:43,380 --> 01:00:41,470
cordon off the area they protect the

1501
01:00:44,850 --> 01:00:43,390
scene they take Lonnie back to the

1502
01:00:49,490 --> 01:00:44,860
police station they talked to him they

1503
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:49,500
talked to Shabbas and as I said Holder

1504
01:00:56,190 --> 01:00:51,730
writes a short report that is

1505
01:00:59,730 --> 01:00:56,200
communicated to the Pentagon and it

1506
01:01:03,450 --> 01:00:59,740
seems that it was not quite clear in the

1507
01:01:05,100 --> 01:01:03,460
documentation whether he called first or

1508
01:01:06,690 --> 01:01:05,110
they called him to talk to him about

1509
01:01:07,770 --> 01:01:06,700
what was going on but anyhow he's in

1510
01:01:10,770 --> 01:01:07,780
communication with people at the

1511
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:10,780
Pentagon on a secure line one that you

1512
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:12,250
didn't talk about classified material

1513
01:01:18,300 --> 01:01:16,090
over and the line went dead it had they

1514
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:18,310
had to reconnect in some fashion but

1515
01:01:23,930 --> 01:01:20,290
holder's report was written that night

1516
01:01:26,250 --> 01:01:23,940
which is important because now we have

1517
01:01:30,330 --> 01:01:26,260
the investigator producing a report

1518
01:01:33,150 --> 01:01:30,340
within hours of the of the landing the

1519
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:33,160
newspapers get ahold of it they talk

1520
01:01:37,980 --> 01:01:35,730
about it the newspaper in Socorro I

1521
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:37,990
think was published twice a week at the

1522
01:01:42,390 --> 01:01:39,610
time and the next issue was coming out

1523
01:01:44,070 --> 01:01:42,400
and two on Tuesday they didn't get the

1524
01:01:45,270 --> 01:01:44,080
story didn't publish the story until

1525
01:01:46,650 --> 01:01:45,280
Tuesday but of course they had a lot of

1526
01:01:47,100 --> 01:01:46,660
time to check it but other people know

1527
01:01:49,350 --> 01:01:47,110
about it

1528
01:01:52,500 --> 01:01:49,360
I remember seeing Walter Cronkite talk

1529
01:01:56,820 --> 01:01:52,510
about the case back in 1964 so it was

1530
01:01:58,500 --> 01:01:56,830
national news about that and then you

1531
01:02:00,480 --> 01:01:58,510
had the investigators coming in their

1532
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:00,490
samples being taken by by various

1533
01:02:06,090 --> 01:02:04,090
individuals ray Stanford took a bunch it

1534
01:02:08,550 --> 01:02:06,100
was kind of interesting is while he was

1535
01:02:14,550 --> 01:02:08,560
out on the scene the landing site with

1536
01:02:18,010 --> 01:02:14,560
the Hynek and in in Zamora and Chavez

1537
01:02:20,950 --> 01:02:18,020
Hynek didn't have anything to collect

1538
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:20,960
samples him and he borrowed some some

1539
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:25,130
things from Sam Sanford to collect

1540
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:28,370
samples but holder had taken samples the

1541
01:02:32,020 --> 01:02:30,410
night of the landing yeah I was trying

1542
01:02:34,090 --> 01:02:32,030
to what what happened to those and if

1543
01:02:35,260 --> 01:02:34,100
you read the Project Blue Book files you

1544
01:02:37,780 --> 01:02:35,270
find out that holder turned all that

1545
01:02:39,550 --> 01:02:37,790
material over to Hynek and then later on

1546
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:39,560
you find in the project blue blue goo

1547
01:02:42,970 --> 01:02:40,850
files the analysis and they found

1548
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:42,980
nothing spectacular they didn't find any

1549
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:44,570
as I said you know I didn't find any

1550
01:02:50,020 --> 01:02:48,290
evidence of any chemical petrochemicals

1551
01:02:51,460 --> 01:02:50,030
or accelerants that would cause the

1552
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:51,470
burning or anything like that there was

1553
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:53,690
nothing extraordinary about the soil it

1554
01:02:58,450 --> 01:02:55,370
was just normal New Mexico soro

1555
01:03:01,360 --> 01:02:58,460
soil but samples were taken samples were

1556
01:03:03,460 --> 01:03:01,370
analyzed photographs were taken there's

1557
01:03:06,220 --> 01:03:03,470
good photographs of what the landing pad

1558
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:06,230
looked like and that's what I think

1559
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:08,210
Philip Glass you know the great debunker

1560
01:03:18,460 --> 01:03:10,370
and I remember seeing the dark figure

1561
01:03:21,750 --> 01:03:18,470
philip darth darth class he in one of

1562
01:03:24,220 --> 01:03:21,760
his books he had a picture of a

1563
01:03:27,220 --> 01:03:24,230
scrubbing pad with knitting needles

1564
01:03:28,210 --> 01:03:27,230
stuck in it in the relationship of the

1565
01:03:29,590 --> 01:03:28,220
landing gear and he said well the

1566
01:03:31,810 --> 01:03:29,600
landing gears ain't symmetrical and this

1567
01:03:33,940 --> 01:03:31,820
makes no sense I'm thinking a you don't

1568
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:33,950
know what symmetry is for an alien

1569
01:03:37,210 --> 01:03:35,330
creature they might have been really

1570
01:03:38,470 --> 01:03:37,220
really happy with the way it looked and

1571
01:03:40,090 --> 01:03:38,480
the second thing you didn't do was

1572
01:03:44,140 --> 01:03:40,100
correct for the terrain because it

1573
01:03:45,940 --> 01:03:44,150
wasn't a flat surface there was terrain

1574
01:03:48,370 --> 01:03:45,950
features and so you could say the

1575
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:48,380
landing gear compensated for the terrain

1576
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:50,290
so even though the angles looked odd

1577
01:03:54,940 --> 01:03:53,090
when it's based on a flat surface

1578
01:03:56,350 --> 01:03:54,950
if you compensated for it then it would

1579
01:03:57,700 --> 01:03:56,360
be symmetrical and it looks like the

1580
01:03:59,260 --> 01:03:57,710
landing it were pretty much symmetrical

1581
01:04:01,450 --> 01:03:59,270
and the burn area was right in the

1582
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:01,460
middle of it I cannot understand you

1583
01:04:08,890 --> 01:04:04,370
using a chemical rocket to travel

1584
01:04:11,380 --> 01:04:08,900
interstellar distances but that's just

1585
01:04:13,030 --> 01:04:11,390
me and I I don't understand you know

1586
01:04:14,860 --> 01:04:13,040
there was nothing to suggest this

1587
01:04:17,830 --> 01:04:14,870
chemical rocket that caused it to lift

1588
01:04:21,750 --> 01:04:17,840
off with Aurora left any kind of residue

1589
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:21,760
behind which is kind of odd as well so

1590
01:04:25,780 --> 01:04:23,810
you know there was those kinds of

1591
01:04:27,130 --> 01:04:25,790
problems well yeah I have that's another

1592
01:04:28,900 --> 01:04:27,140
one of those issues

1593
01:04:31,630 --> 01:04:28,910
and it's just fresh in my mind because I

1594
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:31,640
entered view dies avian haze last week

1595
01:04:37,420 --> 01:04:35,690
about ancient aliens in the Bible and it

1596
01:04:39,069 --> 01:04:37,430
was that same problem is why why would

1597
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:39,079
they be descriptions of people using

1598
01:04:43,930 --> 01:04:41,930
rockets and you know why is that you

1599
01:04:46,029 --> 01:04:43,940
know a fair argument I'm not I'm not

1600
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:46,039
ruling it out but it just seems highly

1601
01:04:52,029 --> 01:04:48,170
unlikely that another civilization came

1602
01:04:54,339 --> 01:04:52,039
here to earth using rock rocketry you

1603
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:54,349
know we use it to get off the off planet

1604
01:04:59,220 --> 01:04:56,450
but I think if we found a better

1605
01:05:01,870 --> 01:04:59,230
propulsion system we'd be using that

1606
01:05:05,529 --> 01:05:01,880
right I couldn't rule it out but it just

1607
01:05:07,180 --> 01:05:05,539
seems unlikely very unlikely and we all

1608
01:05:08,349 --> 01:05:07,190
that's just yet and but we don't know

1609
01:05:09,549 --> 01:05:08,359
and that's like you know it's kind of a

1610
01:05:11,620 --> 01:05:09,559
question about the cemetery of the

1611
01:05:13,660 --> 01:05:11,630
landing gear and making the point well

1612
01:05:16,329 --> 01:05:13,670
the landing gear wasn't symmetrical ergo

1613
01:05:18,539 --> 01:05:16,339
it was faked because he didn't measure

1614
01:05:20,650 --> 01:05:18,549
things properly when he when he dug the

1615
01:05:22,299 --> 01:05:20,660
the landing gear impressions but of

1616
01:05:23,559 --> 01:05:22,309
course saw compression and everything

1617
01:05:24,819 --> 01:05:23,569
else suggests that these were pressed

1618
01:05:27,339 --> 01:05:24,829
into the soil as opposed to something

1619
01:05:32,710 --> 01:05:27,349
that was excavated but I mean I think

1620
01:05:34,059 --> 01:05:32,720
you know you we don't know what how an

1621
01:05:35,979 --> 01:05:34,069
alien race would think and maybe

1622
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:35,989
symmetry isn't that important to them

1623
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:38,930
you would think that you'd want the four

1624
01:05:42,700 --> 01:05:40,970
legs underneath the craft to support the

1625
01:05:44,229 --> 01:05:42,710
weight equally but there might be some

1626
01:05:46,479 --> 01:05:44,239
reason that they don't do that that we

1627
01:05:48,249 --> 01:05:46,489
don't know about I just saw something on

1628
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:48,259
the Taj Mahal moving into a different

1629
01:05:52,569 --> 01:05:50,690
direction but the point is when you look

1630
01:05:54,039 --> 01:05:52,579
at the big dome at the Taj Mahal you

1631
01:05:57,519 --> 01:05:54,049
think it's symmetrical and it turns out

1632
01:05:59,920 --> 01:05:57,529
it's not it's off by like three feet one

1633
01:06:01,539 --> 01:05:59,930
side bulges and you know out further

1634
01:06:04,150 --> 01:06:01,549
than the other side does you can't see

1635
01:06:06,700 --> 01:06:04,160
it when you look at it but if you

1636
01:06:09,339 --> 01:06:06,710
measure it you find out that it it's not

1637
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:09,349
completely symmetrical so you know

1638
01:06:12,430 --> 01:06:10,730
looking at it from that point of view

1639
01:06:13,989 --> 01:06:12,440
and saying well the the landing gear

1640
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:13,999
wasn't symmetrical really doesn't mean

1641
01:06:18,450 --> 01:06:16,730
much there's other factors that need to

1642
01:06:21,910 --> 01:06:18,460
be taken into consideration

1643
01:06:23,970 --> 01:06:21,920
sure in math and physics is ever

1644
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:23,980
evolving is particularly in space travel

1645
01:06:29,950 --> 01:06:27,650
and I always found it kind of odd I

1646
01:06:33,509 --> 01:06:29,960
don't know the name of the the very

1647
01:06:39,220 --> 01:06:33,519
small division that NASA has where they

1648
01:06:44,740 --> 01:06:39,230
are researching anti-gravity

1649
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:44,750
propulsion it seems a bit bit odd right

1650
01:06:47,770 --> 01:06:45,890
that they would even have such a

1651
01:06:50,410 --> 01:06:47,780
department did that is apparently

1652
01:06:53,230 --> 01:06:50,420
speculative if it's so speculative why

1653
01:06:55,599 --> 01:06:53,240
do I have anyone looking into it well I

1654
01:06:59,339 --> 01:06:55,609
think theoretically it exists but can we

1655
01:07:02,319 --> 01:06:59,349
can we create something that that uses

1656
01:07:05,470 --> 01:07:02,329
an antigravity famiiy well I guess a

1657
01:07:07,089 --> 01:07:05,480
similar thing would be a anti-magnetic

1658
01:07:10,150 --> 01:07:07,099
you know you get the two poles together

1659
01:07:12,039 --> 01:07:10,160
and they'll repel each other and so

1660
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:12,049
maybe gravity works in a similar fashion

1661
01:07:21,130 --> 01:07:16,730
and you can use that to to move off

1662
01:07:22,569 --> 01:07:21,140
planets to your bigger ships yeah it

1663
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:22,579
doesn't seem possible that the craft

1664
01:07:27,130 --> 01:07:25,010
that Zamora saw would have been an

1665
01:07:29,710 --> 01:07:27,140
interstellar craft but then again we

1666
01:07:32,260 --> 01:07:29,720
don't know because we don't know the

1667
01:07:34,270 --> 01:07:32,270
dynamics of interstellar flight it may

1668
01:07:37,780 --> 01:07:34,280
be once you know the secrets it's very

1669
01:07:39,730 --> 01:07:37,790
very simple and not time-consuming where

1670
01:07:42,339 --> 01:07:39,740
we stand in the world today we don't

1671
01:07:45,039 --> 01:07:42,349
know that if we we just got our probe

1672
01:07:48,069 --> 01:07:45,049
Voyager outside the limits of the solar

1673
01:07:51,460 --> 01:07:48,079
system I think they they now claim the

1674
01:07:53,460 --> 01:07:51,470
solar system is is out about a Lightyear

1675
01:07:55,390 --> 01:07:53,470
from the Sun the Sun you know

1676
01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:55,400
gravitational influence goes out about a

1677
01:08:00,220 --> 01:07:57,770
light year in Voyager just move beyond

1678
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:00,230
that point and it's been traveling since

1679
01:08:07,030 --> 01:08:04,730
the mid 1970s and it didn't have to

1680
01:08:08,620 --> 01:08:07,040
traverse the whole Lightyear it only had

1681
01:08:11,410 --> 01:08:08,630
to move outside the gravitational

1682
01:08:13,329 --> 01:08:11,420
influence of the of the Sun and I think

1683
01:08:17,289 --> 01:08:13,339
they talked about it being able to reach

1684
01:08:20,249 --> 01:08:17,299
the nearest star in 86,000 years that's

1685
01:08:24,099 --> 01:08:20,259
a long trip if there is no way to

1686
01:08:25,390 --> 01:08:24,109
short-circuit the distances I don't see

1687
01:08:27,430 --> 01:08:25,400
us making much in the way of

1688
01:08:29,110 --> 01:08:27,440
interstellar flight if there are ways to

1689
01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:29,120
search short circuit that we don't

1690
01:08:33,099 --> 01:08:31,370
understand and it may have to do with

1691
01:08:34,959 --> 01:08:33,109
gravity it may have to do with wormholes

1692
01:08:39,700 --> 01:08:34,969
it may have to do with being able to

1693
01:08:42,789 --> 01:08:39,710
develop faster than light drive then you

1694
01:08:45,789 --> 01:08:42,799
know those arguments kind of fly out the

1695
01:08:48,130 --> 01:08:45,799
window the thing I think of is it's

1696
01:08:50,829 --> 01:08:48,140
easier to fly from New York to Los

1697
01:08:53,030 --> 01:08:50,839
Angeles than it is from say Des Moines

1698
01:08:55,180 --> 01:08:53,040
Iowa to Los Angeles

1699
01:08:58,309 --> 01:08:55,190
New York as she end up having to go

1700
01:09:01,220 --> 01:08:58,319
bizarre directions I I took a trip from

1701
01:09:03,829 --> 01:09:01,230
Cedar Rapids Iowa to Los Angeles and to

1702
01:09:06,950 --> 01:09:03,839
get there I had to fly to Cincinnati

1703
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:06,960
yeah and that's like you know at 90

1704
01:09:11,210 --> 01:09:08,730
minutes in the wrong direction and you

1705
01:09:13,910 --> 01:09:11,220
get on a plane and Cincinnati then you

1706
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:13,920
start flying back West and so after an

1707
01:09:18,620 --> 01:09:15,810
hour after three hours on the airplane

1708
01:09:22,039 --> 01:09:18,630
I'm back to where I started now we can

1709
01:09:24,170 --> 01:09:22,049
go on to to LA but if I'm in New York I

1710
01:09:26,750 --> 01:09:24,180
get to get the LA a lot faster because

1711
01:09:29,090 --> 01:09:26,760
there's all these direct flights there

1712
01:09:31,039 --> 01:09:29,100
may be some kind of mechanism that the

1713
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:31,049
farther the distance the you know the

1714
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:34,290
easier it is to get there there may be

1715
01:09:39,440 --> 01:09:37,650
ways of of short-circuiting the

1716
01:09:43,190 --> 01:09:39,450
distances that we don't understand I

1717
01:09:44,780 --> 01:09:43,200
don't know and that we see or just go

1718
01:09:46,820 --> 01:09:44,790
sad we suggest the difference in the

1719
01:09:49,849 --> 01:09:46,830
kind of craft you wouldn't have the big

1720
01:09:52,610 --> 01:09:49,859
aircraft carrier type things flying

1721
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:52,620
around you you could get get there like

1722
01:09:57,800 --> 01:09:55,170
in your personal car I think I mean

1723
01:10:01,700 --> 01:09:57,810
something smaller than then these huge

1724
01:10:04,310 --> 01:10:01,710
huge ships right and I'm wondering gee

1725
01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:04,320
blue flames that are reported in

1726
01:10:10,100 --> 01:10:06,960
multiple cases that you reference to in

1727
01:10:12,650 --> 01:10:10,110
this book are those what are those new

1728
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:12,660
frames are they misinterpreted lights or

1729
01:10:17,150 --> 01:10:14,970
people actually seeing flames of their

1730
01:10:18,710 --> 01:10:17,160
flames their flames their flames their

1731
01:10:21,350 --> 01:10:18,720
flames and some of them are tinged with

1732
01:10:25,370 --> 01:10:21,360
orange and some of them are not but no

1733
01:10:27,620 --> 01:10:25,380
it's actual flames and I think in

1734
01:10:30,410 --> 01:10:27,630
holders report if I remember correctly

1735
01:10:31,790 --> 01:10:30,420
he doesn't really give numbers he talks

1736
01:10:33,710 --> 01:10:31,800
about the three people who called the

1737
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:33,720
police but he says they reported flames

1738
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:35,610
in the sky or they reported an object

1739
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:37,410
but he doesn't say you know three two

1740
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:39,330
people reported flames one person

1741
01:10:42,110 --> 01:10:40,530
reported an object or anything like that

1742
01:10:45,050 --> 01:10:42,120
he just reports you know they saw flames

1743
01:10:51,050 --> 01:10:45,060
and the object so which would it be a

1744
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:51,060
nice thing to know too but so we don't

1745
01:10:56,180 --> 01:10:53,250
really know anything about that and what

1746
01:10:57,830 --> 01:10:56,190
what the purpose of the flame was I just

1747
01:11:00,320 --> 01:10:57,840
wonder you know when they say flames was

1748
01:11:03,380 --> 01:11:00,330
it like when a rocket was the flames

1749
01:11:05,430 --> 01:11:03,390
coming out of a jet you know was it what

1750
01:11:07,980 --> 01:11:05,440
you know what kind of flames are

1751
01:11:10,740 --> 01:11:07,990
without me imagine well that's the I

1752
01:11:12,270 --> 01:11:10,750
think if you see a jet in the Twilight

1753
01:11:14,610 --> 01:11:12,280
or at night you can often see the blue

1754
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:14,620
flames out the back of them I'm thinking

1755
01:11:18,030 --> 01:11:16,330
specifically fighter planes as opposed

1756
01:11:19,530 --> 01:11:18,040
to passenger jets but you can see the

1757
01:11:21,270 --> 01:11:19,540
flames out to the back of those things

1758
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:21,280
that you normally can't say especially

1759
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:23,130
if they go to afterburners you get the

1760
01:11:30,300 --> 01:11:27,370
big big flame out the back but I don't

1761
01:11:32,790 --> 01:11:30,310
know anything about the propulsion

1762
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:32,800
system at all I can tell you is this is

1763
01:11:37,830 --> 01:11:34,930
what was reported it makes little sense

1764
01:11:40,590 --> 01:11:37,840
to me because I would think that they

1765
01:11:42,060 --> 01:11:40,600
would have something more advanced than

1766
01:11:44,130 --> 01:11:42,070
a chemical rocket to lift off the

1767
01:11:46,620 --> 01:11:44,140
surface of a planet but maybe they found

1768
01:11:48,900 --> 01:11:46,630
that's the best way to do it you know

1769
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:48,910
maybe just just for liftoff and then

1770
01:11:56,670 --> 01:11:52,090
once there's gravity free then they have

1771
01:11:59,010 --> 01:11:56,680
a motion that they would use yeah I just

1772
01:12:01,170 --> 01:11:59,020
we don't know I mean we have we have the

1773
01:12:03,630 --> 01:12:01,180
blue flames out of our Rockets until we

1774
01:12:05,250 --> 01:12:03,640
get to get the spacecraft up into orbit

1775
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:05,260
and then they shut it off you know and

1776
01:12:08,550 --> 01:12:07,090
they just hit it when they need to make

1777
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:08,560
corrections and things and maybe that

1778
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:10,690
maybe that's the best way they found to

1779
01:12:14,070 --> 01:12:12,370
get off a planet's surface and back to

1780
01:12:16,110 --> 01:12:14,080
the main ship or something I don't know

1781
01:12:17,940 --> 01:12:16,120
yeah and that would be the same with

1782
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:17,950
solar sails right I mean it's a more

1783
01:12:23,310 --> 01:12:20,290
efficient way of traveling interstellar

1784
01:12:25,470 --> 01:12:23,320
Li and that seems to be the route a lot

1785
01:12:27,150 --> 01:12:25,480
of research is going now and it's the

1786
01:12:29,340 --> 01:12:27,160
same idea you're gonna use a secondary

1787
01:12:33,570 --> 01:12:29,350
propulsion system once you're in in

1788
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:33,580
space and free of gravity so I I do want

1789
01:12:37,020 --> 01:12:35,890
to talk about before you know time

1790
01:12:41,220 --> 01:12:37,030
catches up with us we still have a

1791
01:12:44,220 --> 01:12:41,230
little little ways to go but the symbol

1792
01:12:47,730 --> 01:12:44,230
that Lonnie is Amara reported on the

1793
01:12:48,230 --> 01:12:47,740
craft now he was told by was a Colonel

1794
01:12:53,910 --> 01:12:48,240
holder

1795
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:53,920
from a story for investigative purposes

1796
01:12:58,770 --> 01:12:56,530
to find out if anyone else had reported

1797
01:13:01,080 --> 01:12:58,780
the same thing without their version of

1798
01:13:05,030 --> 01:13:01,090
this story being influenced by reports

1799
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:05,040
of his own so what did he actually see

1800
01:13:10,770 --> 01:13:08,050
well first I would say that that I think

1801
01:13:12,180 --> 01:13:10,780
holder made a suggestion as opposed to

1802
01:13:14,820 --> 01:13:12,190
making an order I think it was a

1803
01:13:16,980 --> 01:13:14,830
suggestion and I make and I make that

1804
01:13:18,209 --> 01:13:16,990
distinction simply because in the UFO

1805
01:13:20,459 --> 01:13:18,219
field as you know there's a great deal

1806
01:13:22,620 --> 01:13:20,469
paranoia and the idea that holder

1807
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:22,630
ordered him not to mention the symbol is

1808
01:13:26,700 --> 01:13:24,010
different than suggesting don't mention

1809
01:13:28,739 --> 01:13:26,710
it and gave him the reasons and not only

1810
01:13:32,189 --> 01:13:28,749
did the Mora agree but the Lorenz ins

1811
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:32,199
who were the great UFO researchers from

1812
01:13:37,020 --> 01:13:34,690
a pro thought it was a fine idea as well

1813
01:13:39,870 --> 01:13:37,030
but what is a Mora saw what he drew

1814
01:13:43,620 --> 01:13:39,880
within literally seconds of the craft

1815
01:13:45,719 --> 01:13:43,630
lifting off was an arc with a V

1816
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:45,729
underneath it and aligned down so it

1817
01:13:50,759 --> 01:13:48,010
looks like a Arrowhead in a line across

1818
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:50,769
the bottom in red that's what Liz amaura

1819
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:54,010
drew on the scrap of paper he had and

1820
01:14:01,049 --> 01:13:56,130
then a couple of hours later drew for

1821
01:14:06,830 --> 01:14:01,059
holder and then signed it in the files

1822
01:14:09,060 --> 01:14:06,840
that Mercer found there were two cards

1823
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:09,070
one of them one of them looks like the

1824
01:14:12,120 --> 01:14:10,210
neither version if somebody made a

1825
01:14:14,399 --> 01:14:12,130
handwritten notation and somebody put

1826
01:14:16,140 --> 01:14:14,409
made a neater version of it but what it

1827
01:14:19,319 --> 01:14:16,150
showed there was an inverted V with

1828
01:14:21,779 --> 01:14:19,329
three lines through it which is also in

1829
01:14:25,410 --> 01:14:21,789
red and that was reported in the

1830
01:14:28,919 --> 01:14:25,420
newspapers if you go through the project

1831
01:14:30,359 --> 01:14:28,929
Bluebook file cases you can see what I

1832
01:14:32,580 --> 01:14:30,369
call the umbrella symbol which is the

1833
01:14:34,649 --> 01:14:32,590
arc over the basically the arrowhead

1834
01:14:37,770 --> 01:14:34,659
with the line underneath or Azana line

1835
01:14:40,410 --> 01:14:37,780
underneath it that's reported throughout

1836
01:14:42,029 --> 01:14:40,420
the file the only place the inverted V

1837
01:14:45,839 --> 01:14:42,039
with the three line through it is in the

1838
01:14:47,310 --> 01:14:45,849
subsequent file that Mercer found but it

1839
01:14:48,839 --> 01:14:47,320
looks like it's a newspaper report and

1840
01:14:50,310 --> 01:14:48,849
if you go back to the newspapers that's

1841
01:14:53,310 --> 01:14:50,320
the symbol that's being reported in the

1842
01:14:57,029 --> 01:14:53,320
newspapers ray Stanford in a letter to

1843
01:15:00,419 --> 01:14:57,039
dick Hall in May of 1964 so it's within

1844
01:15:02,399 --> 01:15:00,429
weeks of the sighting I think was within

1845
01:15:04,950 --> 01:15:02,409
two weeks of the sighting who said that

1846
01:15:06,779 --> 01:15:04,960
if you if you've got the the arc the

1847
01:15:09,149 --> 01:15:06,789
umbrella symbol that's the correct

1848
01:15:11,100 --> 01:15:09,159
symbol and the inverted V with the three

1849
01:15:14,069 --> 01:15:11,110
lines to it is the fake symbol the the

1850
01:15:16,830 --> 01:15:14,079
hoax symbol in his book ten years later

1851
01:15:18,719 --> 01:15:16,840
he reverses that says that the the arc

1852
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:18,729
symbol is the fake one and the inverted

1853
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:20,530
V is there's the real one

1854
01:15:24,390 --> 01:15:22,690
I think the preponderance of the

1855
01:15:26,009 --> 01:15:24,400
evidence and this is based on the the

1856
01:15:27,959 --> 01:15:26,019
official project Bluebook files and

1857
01:15:31,980 --> 01:15:27,969
there's a number of people who reported

1858
01:15:35,540 --> 01:15:31,990
on it drew the symbol also

1859
01:15:38,430 --> 01:15:35,550
as in in the files and I think because

1860
01:15:41,910 --> 01:15:38,440
their expectation was the files wouldn't

1861
01:15:44,280 --> 01:15:41,920
be released publicly they felt confident

1862
01:15:46,110 --> 01:15:44,290
of putting that umbrella symbol in the

1863
01:15:48,180 --> 01:15:46,120
in the file this is the correct symbol

1864
01:15:50,010 --> 01:15:48,190
and that's and it seems to be all the

1865
01:15:51,540 --> 01:15:50,020
way through the files of that until you

1866
01:15:54,030 --> 01:15:51,550
get to a letter written by Hynek in

1867
01:15:56,040 --> 01:15:54,040
September there he's got an inverted V

1868
01:15:57,870 --> 01:15:56,050
but he's got a line over the point and

1869
01:15:59,580 --> 01:15:57,880
two lines between the legs which is not

1870
01:16:04,080 --> 01:15:59,590
the same symbol that everybody else is

1871
01:16:08,580 --> 01:16:04,090
talking about but in another document by

1872
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:08,590
I think was Jenny's I'd Minh I forget I

1873
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:10,810
forget but you know it's it's reported

1874
01:16:19,620 --> 01:16:14,050
in the book Hynek was discussing a lot

1875
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:19,630
of these points with her and he pointed

1876
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:20,890
out that the new what the newspaper

1877
01:16:24,630 --> 01:16:22,930
symbol was in there which was the

1878
01:16:25,260 --> 01:16:24,640
inverted fee with the three three lines

1879
01:16:26,970 --> 01:16:25,270
or so I think

1880
01:16:28,950 --> 01:16:26,980
Hynek got confused later on about

1881
01:16:30,420 --> 01:16:28,960
exactly what the symbol was but it seems

1882
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:30,430
a preponderance of the evidence and the

1883
01:16:34,890 --> 01:16:33,370
ones that is a more assigned is the

1884
01:16:37,290 --> 01:16:34,900
umbrella symbol and I would and I think

1885
01:16:38,550 --> 01:16:37,300
given that is a more assignment that's

1886
01:16:40,710 --> 01:16:38,560
the one that's in the project Bluebook

1887
01:16:43,860 --> 01:16:40,720
files the official files I think that's

1888
01:16:46,050 --> 01:16:43,870
that's the symbol that he saw yeah I

1889
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:46,060
think that absolutely makes sense and

1890
01:16:50,340 --> 01:16:47,410
then of course that we said the other

1891
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:50,350
reason for not sharing certain

1892
01:16:54,630 --> 01:16:52,170
information such as the

1893
01:16:57,750 --> 01:16:54,640
extraterrestrials or beings or whatever

1894
01:17:02,310 --> 01:16:57,760
he thinks he saw was sort of detect his

1895
01:17:04,520 --> 01:17:02,320
own integrity and to prevent any public

1896
01:17:08,370 --> 01:17:04,530
shaming and to protect his reputation

1897
01:17:11,310 --> 01:17:08,380
what did he actually see look let me

1898
01:17:13,860 --> 01:17:11,320
make a comment here if we if he had seen

1899
01:17:16,620 --> 01:17:13,870
this object in today's environment the

1900
01:17:18,330 --> 01:17:16,630
Twitterverse would have exploded and

1901
01:17:21,210 --> 01:17:18,340
everybody would have an opinion no

1902
01:17:22,470 --> 01:17:21,220
matter how uninformed that opinion is

1903
01:17:24,270 --> 01:17:22,480
there everybody would have an opinion

1904
01:17:26,310 --> 01:17:24,280
but what he really saw what he was

1905
01:17:28,980 --> 01:17:26,320
really doing and it and eventually it

1906
01:17:30,180 --> 01:17:28,990
would be Trump's fault you know somebody

1907
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:30,190
would make that comment and then

1908
01:17:33,690 --> 01:17:31,810
somebody say well it's really Hillary at

1909
01:17:40,260 --> 01:17:33,700
Bill's fault and he would just go up

1910
01:17:42,210 --> 01:17:40,270
smart Kent but I just wanted I just

1911
01:17:45,410 --> 01:17:42,220
wanted to say that because I think it

1912
01:17:47,930 --> 01:17:45,420
was you know important that

1913
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:47,940
we discuss that we make that distinction

1914
01:17:52,310 --> 01:17:50,250
anyway what he talked about he talked

1915
01:17:53,690 --> 01:17:52,320
about if you look at the newspaper

1916
01:17:55,460 --> 01:17:53,700
reports a lot of them say he just saw

1917
01:17:57,590 --> 01:17:55,470
white coveralls he didn't really see any

1918
01:17:59,990 --> 01:17:57,600
beings he just saw white coveralls I

1919
01:18:01,820 --> 01:18:00,000
think that was a way of kind of amending

1920
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:01,830
what he had seen because he described it

1921
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:03,810
elsewhere he described him as as

1922
01:18:08,180 --> 01:18:06,930
humanoids there was clearly something in

1923
01:18:09,980 --> 01:18:08,190
the coveralls they weren't floating

1924
01:18:12,380 --> 01:18:09,990
around but he doesn't give an elaborate

1925
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:12,390
descriptions of what he had seen but he

1926
01:18:15,650 --> 01:18:14,370
talks about them being beings he talks

1927
01:18:17,540 --> 01:18:15,660
about he mentions them being people

1928
01:18:20,210 --> 01:18:17,550
actually ray stanford and i got into an

1929
01:18:22,100 --> 01:18:20,220
argument this not about a big argument

1930
01:18:23,450 --> 01:18:22,110
about this that that one is immoral

1931
01:18:25,670 --> 01:18:23,460
never said people and I said I got a

1932
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:25,680
transcript right here from the files of

1933
01:18:29,300 --> 01:18:27,210
guys talking to him and he's writing

1934
01:18:30,500 --> 01:18:29,310
down with Lonnie said he says people he

1935
01:18:32,150 --> 01:18:30,510
said well do you have a tape and I'm

1936
01:18:33,790 --> 01:18:32,160
thinking I don't need a tape for a

1937
01:18:37,730 --> 01:18:33,800
transcript if I'm talking to the guy

1938
01:18:39,290 --> 01:18:37,740
anyway so he talked about him being

1939
01:18:41,330 --> 01:18:39,300
people he said they were about the size

1940
01:18:43,850 --> 01:18:41,340
of small and that small small adult

1941
01:18:46,010 --> 01:18:43,860
small adults or children so they weren't

1942
01:18:48,440 --> 01:18:46,020
very big they were humanoid two arms two

1943
01:18:50,330 --> 01:18:48,450
legs one head that kind of thing didn't

1944
01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:50,340
see a lot of features didn't see a lot

1945
01:18:54,980 --> 01:18:52,250
that he described I think part of that

1946
01:18:58,400 --> 01:18:54,990
lack of description now comes about

1947
01:19:01,520 --> 01:18:58,410
because of what Burns had said to him

1948
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:01,530
about not talking about it and

1949
01:19:09,230 --> 01:19:05,970
interestingly when when the lorenz ins

1950
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:09,240
talked to Zamora about it he would

1951
01:19:14,270 --> 01:19:11,370
describe the beings and and and it's in

1952
01:19:16,730 --> 01:19:14,280
the April 1960 I'm sorry May 1964 issue

1953
01:19:18,980 --> 01:19:16,740
of the APRA bulletin he there's a long

1954
01:19:20,210 --> 01:19:18,990
story about Zamora of course and when

1955
01:19:21,590 --> 01:19:20,220
they asked him about the symbol he

1956
01:19:23,090 --> 01:19:21,600
refused to talk about that but he would

1957
01:19:24,380 --> 01:19:23,100
but he didn't tell him a little bit

1958
01:19:26,660 --> 01:19:24,390
about the beings but didn't give a lot

1959
01:19:30,350 --> 01:19:26,670
of description the other interesting

1960
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:30,360
thing about that issue is there's a

1961
01:19:35,630 --> 01:19:32,970
drawing was made by Rick Baca based on

1962
01:19:38,330 --> 01:19:35,640
what Lonnie Zamora said so Mora had gone

1963
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:38,340
to the city attorney after the sighting

1964
01:19:42,740 --> 01:19:41,250
to make sure that he wasn't doing

1965
01:19:45,860 --> 01:19:42,750
anything that would get him get him into

1966
01:19:49,100 --> 01:19:45,870
trouble with the city and Ric bakas

1967
01:19:51,770 --> 01:19:49,110
father was like a paralegal in the

1968
01:19:56,299 --> 01:19:51,780
office so Ric Baca who was only 14 at

1969
01:19:58,969 --> 01:19:56,309
the time and something of an artist

1970
01:20:01,969 --> 01:19:58,979
draws the the object as it was seen by

1971
01:20:03,229 --> 01:20:01,979
Lonnie Zamora with the the way the

1972
01:20:05,660 --> 01:20:03,239
landing gear wearing all of this stuff

1973
01:20:07,669 --> 01:20:05,670
the drawing has shown to Zamora and he

1974
01:20:09,830 --> 01:20:07,679
said is it right and then he takes a pen

1975
01:20:12,229 --> 01:20:09,840
and he draws the symbol on it the

1976
01:20:13,549 --> 01:20:12,239
drawings that appeared in the defense

1977
01:20:15,500 --> 01:20:13,559
are chiefed and the Socorro newspaper

1978
01:20:18,410 --> 01:20:15,510
doesn't have the symbol on it the

1979
01:20:20,660 --> 01:20:18,420
drawing as it appears in the APRA

1980
01:20:21,709 --> 01:20:20,670
bulletin does have the symbol on it so I

1981
01:20:26,290 --> 01:20:21,719
thought that was kind of interesting

1982
01:20:32,180 --> 01:20:30,469
well the Lorenz ins had a habit of you

1983
01:20:34,069 --> 01:20:32,190
know the May issue of the bulletin

1984
01:20:37,580 --> 01:20:34,079
might've come out in July they were

1985
01:20:38,930 --> 01:20:37,590
always late on this sort of thing so but

1986
01:20:40,580 --> 01:20:38,940
but they had the right they had the

1987
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:40,590
symbol on the drawing and it's the same

1988
01:20:44,330 --> 01:20:43,530
drawing that Rick Baca had made I talked

1989
01:20:46,609 --> 01:20:44,340
to Rick Baca

1990
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:46,619
yes I wasn't asked what sort of

1991
01:20:51,739 --> 01:20:49,530
resources did Lorenz ins have to do the

1992
01:20:54,709 --> 01:20:51,749
investigations that they did time and

1993
01:20:56,600 --> 01:20:54,719
money etc oh they were investing their

1994
01:20:59,270 --> 01:20:56,610
own time and money in it at the time

1995
01:21:01,040 --> 01:20:59,280
that couldn't always be there you know

1996
01:21:03,890 --> 01:21:01,050
split-second Efrain have been happened

1997
01:21:05,359 --> 01:21:03,900
they tried when it was an event like

1998
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:05,369
this they tried to either get there

1999
01:21:10,160 --> 01:21:07,050
later on they would dispatch field

2000
01:21:12,439 --> 01:21:10,170
investigators to the scene as quickly as

2001
01:21:15,259 --> 01:21:12,449
they could do that but the interesting

2002
01:21:17,060 --> 01:21:15,269
thing was they lived in Tucson and I

2003
01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:17,070
think that they got there Sunday

2004
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:19,050
afternoon again the thing took place on

2005
01:21:23,479 --> 01:21:20,489
a Friday evening they were there on

2006
01:21:26,089 --> 01:21:23,489
Sunday they couldn't get there Saturday

2007
01:21:27,620 --> 01:21:26,099
because they were making arrangements

2008
01:21:31,189 --> 01:21:27,630
for things that they had to do so they

2009
01:21:33,950 --> 01:21:31,199
could get out of town and get to 2 to

2010
01:21:35,479 --> 01:21:33,960
Socorro but they were there within 48

2011
01:21:37,339 --> 01:21:35,489
hours of the sighting and talking to

2012
01:21:39,500 --> 01:21:37,349
Zamora talking to Chavez and talking to

2013
01:21:42,729 --> 01:21:39,510
the people what's the kind they tell a

2014
01:21:46,399 --> 01:21:42,739
story in in the APRA bulletin about how

2015
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:46,409
jim Lorenzen was in a hallway and moody

2016
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:51,090
who was the air force investigator was

2017
01:21:53,870 --> 01:21:52,170
there and he was talking to some other

2018
01:21:54,919 --> 01:21:53,880
people that Lorenson was listening in I

2019
01:21:57,709 --> 01:21:54,929
mean they were standing and listening

2020
01:22:01,520 --> 01:21:57,719
and moody says yeah we got a problem

2021
01:22:03,770 --> 01:22:01,530
this about this Lorenzen woman he's

2022
01:22:05,330 --> 01:22:03,780
she's a she's a nut with you know Jim

2023
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:05,340
standing right there listening to that

2024
01:22:09,290 --> 01:22:07,050
so it gives you an idea of what the

2025
01:22:09,740 --> 01:22:09,300
airforce investigator thought of coral

2026
01:22:12,020 --> 01:22:09,750
resin

2027
01:22:13,940 --> 01:22:12,030
I thought I I mean I knew Kohler renson

2028
01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:13,950
and I did visit him at their home and in

2029
01:22:20,270 --> 01:22:17,370
the Tucson and things like that they

2030
01:22:22,250 --> 01:22:20,280
believed sincerely in the

2031
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:22,260
extraterrestrial explanation of stuff

2032
01:22:27,740 --> 01:22:25,410
they were more willing to accept cases

2033
01:22:32,450 --> 01:22:27,750
of the really bizarre than saying I cap

2034
01:22:33,650 --> 01:22:32,460
was or the Air Force with my cap in the

2035
01:22:35,270 --> 01:22:33,660
air force if you saw the thing in the

2036
01:22:36,770 --> 01:22:35,280
sky that was okay if you saw it on the

2037
01:22:38,510 --> 01:22:36,780
ground well that's you know you're

2038
01:22:40,210 --> 01:22:38,520
getting a little bizarre and if you saw

2039
01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:40,220
something from inside of it you were

2040
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:43,170
psychologically damaged in some fashion

2041
01:22:48,230 --> 01:22:45,210
for the most part which is you know an

2042
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:48,240
another indication of the credibility of

2043
01:22:55,520 --> 01:22:50,850
the Socorro case is that quintanilla who

2044
01:22:56,960 --> 01:22:55,530
wanted badly to solve the case

2045
01:22:59,900 --> 01:22:56,970
couldn't do it and he had to market

2046
01:23:02,720 --> 01:22:59,910
unidentified and he and he said in his

2047
01:23:04,580 --> 01:23:02,730
own memoirs you know the ub UFO hobby

2048
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:04,590
hobbyists would have a field day with

2049
01:23:08,480 --> 01:23:06,090
this explanation but he couldn't find an

2050
01:23:10,700 --> 01:23:08,490
explanation and if there was a hint of

2051
01:23:14,660 --> 01:23:10,710
an explanation he would have jumped all

2052
01:23:16,370 --> 01:23:14,670
over it an accurate information a solid

2053
01:23:17,980 --> 01:23:16,380
explanation he would have jumped all

2054
01:23:21,860 --> 01:23:17,990
over it

2055
01:23:26,450 --> 01:23:21,870
were they quirky characters or they you

2056
01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:26,460
know no they were they were just like

2057
01:23:31,070 --> 01:23:28,290
anybody else who started an organization

2058
01:23:36,380 --> 01:23:31,080
to investigate UFOs they they were nice

2059
01:23:38,090 --> 01:23:36,390
down-to-earth people I know that Jim

2060
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:38,100
Lorenzen called me one night to dispatch

2061
01:23:42,050 --> 01:23:40,290
me on a cattle mutilation investigation

2062
01:23:44,180 --> 01:23:42,060
in Minnesota which I wasn't delighted

2063
01:23:46,580 --> 01:23:44,190
about doing because it didn't seem that

2064
01:23:48,140 --> 01:23:46,590
it was driven by aliens but something

2065
01:23:51,680 --> 01:23:48,150
else and I didn't want to get tangled up

2066
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:51,690
with the something else but that's what

2067
01:23:57,950 --> 01:23:53,010
they would do they would call their

2068
01:23:59,870 --> 01:23:57,960
field investigators to have them look at

2069
01:24:02,390 --> 01:23:59,880
cases if they found an explanation for a

2070
01:24:05,740 --> 01:24:02,400
case they were they would print it I had

2071
01:24:08,990 --> 01:24:05,750
done a story in saga magazine back in

2072
01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:09,000
1976 I think it was about the Dion zeal

2073
01:24:19,280 --> 01:24:15,050
Janka case who was a Argentine I think a

2074
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:19,290
South American who had been abducted as

2075
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:20,890
you'd and

2076
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:22,330
[Music]

2077
01:24:25,770 --> 01:24:24,130
I had gotten the information from the

2078
01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:25,780
resins and after you know after a couple

2079
01:24:30,470 --> 01:24:28,090
of years call said to me you know you

2080
01:24:34,620 --> 01:24:30,480
know that that case is probably a hoax

2081
01:24:36,900 --> 01:24:34,630
so they weren't they didn't object to

2082
01:24:39,480 --> 01:24:36,910
labeling a case of hoax if if they found

2083
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:39,490
the explanation but they're biased

2084
01:24:44,610 --> 01:24:42,010
tended toward the extra trust you can

2085
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:44,620
point to a lot of people who's biased

2086
01:24:50,100 --> 01:24:46,650
lean one way or another depending on

2087
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:50,110
their orientation so I don't I don't

2088
01:24:54,180 --> 01:24:51,370
hold that up against them they were they

2089
01:24:57,320 --> 01:24:54,190
were they devote a lot of time and

2090
01:24:59,490 --> 01:24:57,330
energy and financial resources to

2091
01:25:01,350 --> 01:24:59,500
investigating UFOs and I don't think the

2092
01:25:05,700 --> 01:25:01,360
APRA bulletin paid them all that much

2093
01:25:07,170 --> 01:25:05,710
money to to do the research I'm sure

2094
01:25:10,410 --> 01:25:07,180
that they were spending a lot of money

2095
01:25:12,480 --> 01:25:10,420
out of pocket on on their research and I

2096
01:25:14,190 --> 01:25:12,490
you know you you look at you can point

2097
01:25:15,630 --> 01:25:14,200
to any MUFON investigator well not to

2098
01:25:17,340 --> 01:25:15,640
any but you can point to a lot of the

2099
01:25:19,110 --> 01:25:17,350
MUFON investigators today are the same

2100
01:25:20,730 --> 01:25:19,120
and they're they're very good solid

2101
01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:20,740
people who are spending their their own

2102
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:23,290
money to do research hoping to get some

2103
01:25:28,980 --> 01:25:27,010
kind of answer and proof and that's that

2104
01:25:31,110 --> 01:25:28,990
that's where the Lorenzo's work ok well

2105
01:25:33,180 --> 01:25:31,120
let's hold it there we are on the third

2106
01:25:35,100 --> 01:25:33,190
and final break of paranoia now on the

2107
01:25:37,620 --> 01:25:35,110
inception radio network and we will

2108
01:25:39,339 --> 01:25:37,630
continue the story of Socorro landing in

2109
01:25:41,260 --> 01:25:39,349
New Mexico and

2110
01:25:43,450 --> 01:25:41,270
this case is fascinating because there's

2111
01:25:45,850 --> 01:25:43,460
so many connections to it and you keep

2112
01:25:51,900 --> 01:25:45,860
going down those roads so hang in there

2113
01:25:51,910 --> 01:25:59,750
[Music]

2114
01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:02,490
and welcome back to paranormal now I'm

2115
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:04,090
the inception of Radio Network I am your

2116
01:26:10,700 --> 01:26:07,090
host Alan B Smith and my guest tonight

2117
01:26:13,200 --> 01:26:10,710
is Kevin D Randle he's a former former

2118
01:26:16,080 --> 01:26:13,210
Army helicopter pilot and Air Force

2119
01:26:20,910 --> 01:26:16,090
intelligence officer and one of his

2120
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:20,920
latest of many books is encounter in the

2121
01:26:26,970 --> 01:26:22,810
desert the case for alien contact at

2122
01:26:28,530 --> 01:26:26,980
Socorro so I'm not sure exactly at this

2123
01:26:32,669 --> 01:26:28,540
point where we left off because we've

2124
01:26:36,240 --> 01:26:32,679
kind of come in and out of the story so

2125
01:26:37,500 --> 01:26:36,250
let's continue with I think we left off

2126
01:26:39,859 --> 01:26:37,510
sort of with his description of the

2127
01:26:42,780 --> 01:26:39,869
symbols description of alien creatures

2128
01:26:45,090 --> 01:26:42,790
and then what was his life like after

2129
01:26:47,370 --> 01:26:45,100
that you know after he had had filled

2130
01:26:49,260 --> 01:26:47,380
out all these reports and he spoke to

2131
01:26:51,149 --> 01:26:49,270
the Rennes ins he spoke to Air Force

2132
01:26:54,750 --> 01:26:51,159
he's eventually spoke to hi Nick did we

2133
01:26:56,609 --> 01:26:54,760
even get to that really no we didn't

2134
01:26:58,560 --> 01:26:56,619
really hi Nick paid him kind of a

2135
01:27:00,419 --> 01:26:58,570
left-handed compliment which was that he

2136
01:27:02,340 --> 01:27:00,429
wasn't bright enough to hopes the thing

2137
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:02,350
so that kind of suggests the case is

2138
01:27:08,520 --> 01:27:06,489
solid he was a solid police officer the

2139
01:27:09,810 --> 01:27:08,530
apparently a lot of the students didn't

2140
01:27:14,580 --> 01:27:09,820
like him because they gave him speeding

2141
01:27:16,229 --> 01:27:14,590
tickets and you know I mean and you

2142
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:16,239
still see that today you know they were

2143
01:27:20,850 --> 01:27:19,330
they were probably speeding yeah how

2144
01:27:23,340 --> 01:27:20,860
dare you stop me for speeding when I'm

2145
01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:23,350
speeding and give me a ticket you big

2146
01:27:27,180 --> 01:27:25,810
mean guy one of the things they're

2147
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:27,190
saying well you know he liked to have a

2148
01:27:31,410 --> 01:27:29,050
beer now and then I'm thinking yeah but

2149
01:27:33,479 --> 01:27:31,420
he was not a drunk and I haven't heard

2150
01:27:36,870 --> 01:27:33,489
that very much but but it it's a

2151
01:27:38,160 --> 01:27:36,880
suggestion that he drank a lot I didn't

2152
01:27:40,200 --> 01:27:38,170
really see any evidence of that when I

2153
01:27:42,229 --> 01:27:40,210
was looking at it but gee whiz I think

2154
01:27:44,820 --> 01:27:42,239
all of us have had a beer once or twice

2155
01:27:46,859 --> 01:27:44,830
yeah people have a couple a day and they

2156
01:27:54,540 --> 01:27:46,869
come home from work and you know that's

2157
01:27:57,689 --> 01:27:54,550
that's it yeah yeah and as military

2158
01:28:02,640 --> 01:27:57,699
pilots you know we periodically had

2159
01:28:04,020 --> 01:28:02,650
beers and other things as well but III

2160
01:28:06,390 --> 01:28:04,030
don't think that's you know that's not a

2161
01:28:07,320 --> 01:28:06,400
diss disqualifying factor in this

2162
01:28:08,850 --> 01:28:07,330
because I don't think it's really

2163
01:28:10,680 --> 01:28:08,860
evidence he remained a police officer

2164
01:28:13,020 --> 01:28:10,690
for a number of years after that

2165
01:28:14,910 --> 01:28:13,030
and then he took another job with the

2166
01:28:17,850 --> 01:28:14,920
city work from which he retired he spent

2167
01:28:19,650 --> 01:28:17,860
I believe and it's not clear in the

2168
01:28:22,110 --> 01:28:19,660
obituary in any other documentation I

2169
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:22,120
can find but he was a member of the New

2170
01:28:25,350 --> 01:28:23,530
Mexico National Guard and I don't know

2171
01:28:28,229 --> 01:28:25,360
if he stayed in there for the the full

2172
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:28,239
time to get the pension or not he was he

2173
01:28:33,870 --> 01:28:31,570
was a veteran of the Korean War so you

2174
01:28:36,930 --> 01:28:33,880
know he served he served in the Korean

2175
01:28:39,510 --> 01:28:36,940
War and had obviously had an honorable

2176
01:28:40,290 --> 01:28:39,520
discharge from active duty because I

2177
01:28:42,479 --> 01:28:40,300
don't think you'd have been in the

2178
01:28:46,140 --> 01:28:42,489
National Guard had he not had an

2179
01:28:47,459 --> 01:28:46,150
honorable discharge and he would have at

2180
01:28:51,060 --> 01:28:47,469
age sixty he would have been able to

2181
01:28:52,890 --> 01:28:51,070
draw a pension from the army and he

2182
01:28:54,740 --> 01:28:52,900
probably had a pension from the city as

2183
01:28:57,750 --> 01:28:54,750
well he seemed to be a very

2184
01:28:59,580 --> 01:28:57,760
down-to-earth fellow as they say you

2185
01:29:00,930 --> 01:28:59,590
know a friend of mine was just in town

2186
01:29:03,810 --> 01:29:00,940
and called him up he said we're having a

2187
01:29:05,220 --> 01:29:03,820
barbecue come on out you know but we're

2188
01:29:06,689 --> 01:29:05,230
gonna talk about the Flying Saucer and I

2189
01:29:08,630 --> 01:29:06,699
think I think that was kind of the big

2190
01:29:12,330 --> 01:29:08,640
Bugaboo in his life there's a guy named

2191
01:29:13,590 --> 01:29:12,340
Paul Harbor Paul Hart and Paul Hardin

2192
01:29:14,820 --> 01:29:13,600
I'm sorry holder and Hardin you know we

2193
01:29:17,400 --> 01:29:14,830
get these names mixed up

2194
01:29:19,200 --> 01:29:17,410
Paul Hardin who is in New Mexico lives

2195
01:29:21,510 --> 01:29:19,210
in Socorro and was friends with Lonnie

2196
01:29:24,540 --> 01:29:21,520
Zamora and talked to him not long before

2197
01:29:27,420 --> 01:29:24,550
his before his death but Zamora's not

2198
01:29:28,890 --> 01:29:27,430
hardens and they went out and drove

2199
01:29:30,810 --> 01:29:28,900
around and they went out to the scene

2200
01:29:34,229 --> 01:29:30,820
where the thing lad didn't talked about

2201
01:29:41,340 --> 01:29:34,239
it a little bit and Hardin got a another

2202
01:29:43,620 --> 01:29:41,350
a good he got he got the story told to

2203
01:29:44,550 --> 01:29:43,630
him by Lonnie Zamora on the scene and

2204
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:44,560
that sort of thing but it's you know

2205
01:29:50,610 --> 01:29:48,850
like 50 years later but Hardin said that

2206
01:29:52,580 --> 01:29:50,620
you know they just sort of talked about

2207
01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:52,590
it it wasn't really a directed

2208
01:29:56,010 --> 01:29:54,250
question-and-answer session he's just

2209
01:29:57,270 --> 01:29:56,020
kind of two guys out there looking

2210
01:29:59,970 --> 01:29:57,280
around and talking about the events of

2211
01:30:01,740 --> 01:29:59,980
the past but Hardin wouldn't tell me

2212
01:30:03,090 --> 01:30:01,750
much about what Zamora said because he

2213
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:03,100
just felt it was between him and Lonnie

2214
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:03,850
Zamora

2215
01:30:10,590 --> 01:30:08,890
little bit to his friends I think that

2216
01:30:14,280 --> 01:30:10,600
he zomora

2217
01:30:16,470 --> 01:30:14,290
in Sam Sheva certainly thought that it

2218
01:30:17,939 --> 01:30:16,480
was a black project that he had seen

2219
01:30:19,919 --> 01:30:17,949
something that the government was doing

2220
01:30:21,450 --> 01:30:19,929
and he shouldn't have seen it and that's

2221
01:30:24,120 --> 01:30:21,460
really what frightened him was that

2222
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:24,130
there was something about it that being

2223
01:30:28,260 --> 01:30:25,090
a black project that

2224
01:30:30,270 --> 01:30:28,270
he should not be talking about but as I

2225
01:30:35,899 --> 01:30:30,280
said it was important to kind of stress

2226
01:30:40,200 --> 01:30:38,430
authorization to see anything at

2227
01:30:44,729 --> 01:30:40,210
Holloman or White Sands that they were

2228
01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:44,739
testing had a letter of introduction and

2229
01:30:49,020 --> 01:30:47,650
orders with his satirical incest on it

2230
01:30:51,419 --> 01:30:49,030
which cleared him to see virtually

2231
01:30:54,899 --> 01:30:51,429
everything he could find nothing being

2232
01:30:59,910 --> 01:30:54,909
tested at Holloman in Alamogordo or

2233
01:31:03,240 --> 01:30:59,920
white sands that matched what Zamora saw

2234
01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:03,250
and what and that and then the count was

2235
01:31:07,680 --> 01:31:06,130
really the the points that Phillip class

2236
01:31:09,120 --> 01:31:07,690
was trying to make right that that was

2237
01:31:12,479 --> 01:31:09,130
one of his arguments for this whole

2238
01:31:16,890 --> 01:31:12,489
thing being debunked besides the the

2239
01:31:19,200 --> 01:31:16,900
hoaxing well yeah he thought it was an

2240
01:31:20,729 --> 01:31:19,210
attempt by the mayor the mayor

2241
01:31:22,620 --> 01:31:20,739
supposedly owned the land where the

2242
01:31:24,930 --> 01:31:22,630
thing landed and the land wasn't isn't

2243
01:31:26,879 --> 01:31:24,940
worth much it's worth a scrub but if the

2244
01:31:29,490 --> 01:31:26,889
land flying saucer landed there well

2245
01:31:31,379 --> 01:31:29,500
they could turn it into a tourist

2246
01:31:32,970 --> 01:31:31,389
attraction and maybe build a motel and

2247
01:31:34,919 --> 01:31:32,980
people could come and sleep on the site

2248
01:31:37,820 --> 01:31:34,929
of the first contact with alien

2249
01:31:41,760 --> 01:31:37,830
creatures or through the New Mexico

2250
01:31:43,200 --> 01:31:41,770
desert that way but and that's been

2251
01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:43,210
reported in any number of books to the

2252
01:31:46,109 --> 01:31:44,530
mayor own the land turns out that's not

2253
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:46,119
true Mara didn't own the land when the

2254
01:31:50,010 --> 01:31:47,650
tax records were checked somebody else

2255
01:31:50,459 --> 01:31:50,020
owned it so that explanation flies out

2256
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:50,469
the window

2257
01:31:55,439 --> 01:31:53,650
well they suggest my guess is that this

2258
01:31:57,540 --> 01:31:55,449
was supposed to be if there was a hoax

2259
01:31:58,979 --> 01:31:57,550
and the mayor isn't involved and I think

2260
01:32:01,169 --> 01:31:58,989
that would have that would have to mean

2261
01:32:04,500 --> 01:32:01,179
that Sam Chavez was involved and Lonnie

2262
01:32:05,939 --> 01:32:04,510
Zamora and and then also would that

2263
01:32:09,359 --> 01:32:05,949
involve the students of the nearby

2264
01:32:12,300 --> 01:32:09,369
university to actually pull off what

2265
01:32:13,620 --> 01:32:12,310
happened or was well I don't think I

2266
01:32:15,060 --> 01:32:13,630
don't think you can say the mayor's

2267
01:32:16,649 --> 01:32:15,070
involved because there's no evidence for

2268
01:32:19,470 --> 01:32:16,659
that the idea would be the mayor would

2269
01:32:21,780 --> 01:32:19,480
be Zamora's boss Sam Chavez was a state

2270
01:32:23,879 --> 01:32:21,790
police so he wasn't he wasn't

2271
01:32:25,830 --> 01:32:23,889
necessarily under the command of the

2272
01:32:27,750 --> 01:32:25,840
mayor of the city but lies immoral would

2273
01:32:30,629 --> 01:32:27,760
have been but there's no evidence of

2274
01:32:33,600 --> 01:32:30,639
that at all that there's any kind of and

2275
01:32:36,720 --> 01:32:33,610
I used a hard word collusion between the

2276
01:32:38,260 --> 01:32:36,730
mayor of Socorro and Lonnie Zamora the

2277
01:32:40,690 --> 01:32:38,270
mayor didn't own the

2278
01:32:42,040 --> 01:32:40,700
and the idea for the tourist attraction

2279
01:32:43,750 --> 01:32:42,050
didn't come about until a year later

2280
01:32:45,040 --> 01:32:43,760
after the sighting and somebody says you

2281
01:32:47,800 --> 01:32:45,050
know maybe we can make this into a

2282
01:32:50,200 --> 01:32:47,810
tourist attraction but clasp through

2283
01:32:55,240 --> 01:32:50,210
that idea out the secondary idea is it

2284
01:32:57,190 --> 01:32:55,250
was students at the New Mexico I'll say

2285
01:32:58,630 --> 01:32:57,200
school of mining that's not the fool of

2286
01:33:02,140 --> 01:32:58,640
mining and technology something like

2287
01:33:04,630 --> 01:33:02,150
that I mean it's that guy physics

2288
01:33:06,790 --> 01:33:04,640
students physics students and again it's

2289
01:33:09,370 --> 01:33:06,800
College it's a college a university type

2290
01:33:12,340 --> 01:33:09,380
thing not a not a high school or

2291
01:33:14,410 --> 01:33:12,350
anything like that but the evidence from

2292
01:33:16,570 --> 01:33:14,420
there is very very lacking on that as

2293
01:33:17,950 --> 01:33:16,580
well and then you have to wonder how did

2294
01:33:19,780 --> 01:33:17,960
they pull this thing off and when you

2295
01:33:22,570 --> 01:33:19,790
throw in the other witnesses it kind of

2296
01:33:24,940 --> 01:33:22,580
takes it out of the thing nobody's come

2297
01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:24,950
forward to really talk about it tell the

2298
01:33:33,190 --> 01:33:28,330
name Tony bug alia found a letter from

2299
01:33:34,540 --> 01:33:33,200
the president of that school written

2300
01:33:36,820 --> 01:33:34,550
some time after they he wasn't the

2301
01:33:38,620 --> 01:33:36,830
president in 1964 different fellow was

2302
01:33:41,410 --> 01:33:38,630
and Hynek talked to him he says no it's

2303
01:33:43,660 --> 01:33:41,420
not our students but this Colgate had

2304
01:33:45,130 --> 01:33:43,670
sent a letter to Linus Pauling saying

2305
01:33:47,110 --> 01:33:45,140
that it was a hoax pulled off by the

2306
01:33:48,550 --> 01:33:47,120
students but didn't really give much

2307
01:33:50,860 --> 01:33:48,560
detail the fact they went to Linus

2308
01:33:52,630 --> 01:33:50,870
Pauling is kind of irrelevant colgate I

2309
01:33:55,030 --> 01:33:52,640
think was a pretty important guy as well

2310
01:33:57,010 --> 01:33:55,040
III just I always got the impression he

2311
01:34:00,130 --> 01:33:57,020
did that because it sort of embarrassed

2312
01:34:02,490 --> 01:34:00,140
him that Socorro was a scene of a UFO

2313
01:34:10,570 --> 01:34:02,500
landing type thing but there's really

2314
01:34:12,730 --> 01:34:10,580
nothing there that suggests it's it's a

2315
01:34:14,290 --> 01:34:12,740
hoax I mean you just have to wonder how

2316
01:34:16,990 --> 01:34:14,300
they were pulling it off and that sort

2317
01:34:19,570 --> 01:34:17,000
of thing so so but there would be a

2318
01:34:23,680 --> 01:34:19,580
connection between for a collusion

2319
01:34:25,420 --> 01:34:23,690
between the students and the these two

2320
01:34:27,400 --> 01:34:25,430
these two ideas of a hoax the students

2321
01:34:28,510 --> 01:34:27,410
doing a hoax on love Zamora because I

2322
01:34:30,040 --> 01:34:28,520
didn't like him because he gave speeding

2323
01:34:31,750 --> 01:34:30,050
ticket this is one theory the other

2324
01:34:33,370 --> 01:34:31,760
theory is that they wanted tourism so

2325
01:34:35,980 --> 01:34:33,380
the mayor would have done that so these

2326
01:34:38,410 --> 01:34:35,990
are two theories that are exclusive of

2327
01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:38,420
each other there's no evidence the mayor

2328
01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:40,610
was in collusion with the students or

2329
01:34:44,920 --> 01:34:41,810
the students were in collusion with the

2330
01:34:49,900 --> 01:34:44,930
mayor there's absolutely nothing to

2331
01:34:52,030 --> 01:34:49,910
suggest that at all there's stuff coming

2332
01:34:54,010 --> 01:34:52,040
out that suggests that

2333
01:35:01,600 --> 01:34:54,020
it may have been a student hoax but the

2334
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:01,610
problem is you have no witnesses so - -

2335
01:35:05,200 --> 01:35:03,530
that you've got some unidentified

2336
01:35:06,310 --> 01:35:05,210
sources saying yeah we we pulled this

2337
01:35:09,880 --> 01:35:06,320
off but we don't want our names

2338
01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:09,890
mentioned I know from UFO investigate

2339
01:35:15,300 --> 01:35:12,650
those are the students the students yeah

2340
01:35:20,980 --> 01:35:15,310
but I know from investigations that when

2341
01:35:21,490 --> 01:35:20,990
youngsters college-age students do these

2342
01:35:24,730 --> 01:35:21,500
sorts of things

2343
01:35:26,980 --> 01:35:24,740
eventually they cop to it and I always

2344
01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:26,990
say you know 99% of the UFO pictures

2345
01:35:31,180 --> 01:35:29,210
were taken by teenage boys and 99% of

2346
01:35:32,640 --> 01:35:31,190
them they're hoaxes and we've had some

2347
01:35:35,320 --> 01:35:32,650
wonderful pictures that have been

2348
01:35:37,740 --> 01:35:35,330
created by teenage boys and in today's

2349
01:35:41,170 --> 01:35:37,750
environment even much more impressive

2350
01:35:45,220 --> 01:35:41,180
but but the point is they invariably

2351
01:35:46,660 --> 01:35:45,230
come out and say yeah we did that and in

2352
01:35:49,090 --> 01:35:46,670
some of the some of the pictures that

2353
01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:49,100
people have held up for literally

2354
01:35:54,760 --> 01:35:52,010
decades have been proven to be hoaxes or

2355
01:35:56,110 --> 01:35:54,770
admitted to be hoaxes sure sure and and

2356
01:36:00,210 --> 01:35:56,120
I think you make a good point in the

2357
01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:00,220
book that if their endgame was to

2358
01:36:07,540 --> 01:36:05,210
embarrass blossom Zamora then then they

2359
01:36:10,560 --> 01:36:07,550
would have had to admit it so that

2360
01:36:12,790 --> 01:36:10,570
people know that amaura had been had

2361
01:36:14,650 --> 01:36:12,800
well that would that would make it even

2362
01:36:16,150 --> 01:36:14,660
better because not only is nothing is

2363
01:36:22,120 --> 01:36:16,160
reporting a flying saucer and alien

2364
01:36:24,340 --> 01:36:22,130
creatures for God's sakes that really

2365
01:36:26,710 --> 01:36:24,350
would have embarrassed him and that just

2366
01:36:29,230 --> 01:36:26,720
never happened and the people who are

2367
01:36:31,210 --> 01:36:29,240
claiming that it happened that way are

2368
01:36:33,310 --> 01:36:31,220
people who are not associated with it

2369
01:36:36,520 --> 01:36:33,320
the guy colgate was not at the

2370
01:36:39,070 --> 01:36:36,530
university I say University and the

2371
01:36:41,590 --> 01:36:39,080
college at the time the events took

2372
01:36:43,300 --> 01:36:41,600
place and he said well he talked to

2373
01:36:44,860 --> 01:36:43,310
students who told him about this but we

2374
01:36:46,540 --> 01:36:44,870
never get the names of the students who

2375
01:36:48,940 --> 01:36:46,550
were the participants and they never

2376
01:36:51,040 --> 01:36:48,950
said this is how we did it well sure

2377
01:36:53,800 --> 01:36:51,050
well anyone who's been into school knows

2378
01:36:56,980 --> 01:36:53,810
that you know stories become legend and

2379
01:36:59,860 --> 01:36:56,990
you know so you know a generation a

2380
01:37:01,150 --> 01:36:59,870
generation but years later new students

2381
01:37:03,850 --> 01:37:01,160
come into the school to hear about the

2382
01:37:05,680 --> 01:37:03,860
story and then people start claiming

2383
01:37:09,879 --> 01:37:05,690
that it was some

2384
01:37:12,970 --> 01:37:09,889
students from a previous you know years

2385
01:37:15,060 --> 01:37:12,980
ago or whatever or that or that they

2386
01:37:18,040 --> 01:37:15,070
were participants in it how many people

2387
01:37:20,050 --> 01:37:18,050
the best example I have the funniest one

2388
01:37:23,770 --> 01:37:20,060
is not the turn of the last century that

2389
01:37:25,390 --> 01:37:23,780
would be 1900 there were 15 guys at 15

2390
01:37:29,290 --> 01:37:25,400
separate carnivals saying that they were

2391
01:37:33,700 --> 01:37:29,300
the real Jesse James you know 14 of them

2392
01:37:36,160 --> 01:37:33,710
had to be lying you know that's because

2393
01:37:38,379 --> 01:37:36,170
that was their claim to fame I'm the

2394
01:37:40,570 --> 01:37:38,389
real Jesse James I don't know how many

2395
01:37:42,310 --> 01:37:40,580
people have come forward or had come

2396
01:37:43,959 --> 01:37:42,320
forward and said that they were with the

2397
01:37:45,820 --> 01:37:43,969
five companies that custard the Little

2398
01:37:50,500 --> 01:37:45,830
Bighorn and they managed to escape the

2399
01:37:52,419 --> 01:37:50,510
the final onslaught of the massacre you

2400
01:37:55,359 --> 01:37:52,429
know I got out of that that circle of

2401
01:37:57,459 --> 01:37:55,369
death somehow there no evidence that

2402
01:38:02,229 --> 01:37:57,469
that's true but there's any number of

2403
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:02,239
people who said that was was Roswell and

2404
01:38:06,399 --> 01:38:03,050
that was one of the things that in

2405
01:38:11,379 --> 01:38:06,409
Roswell in the 21st century was pointing

2406
01:38:12,970 --> 01:38:11,389
out that here's all these people who

2407
01:38:14,530 --> 01:38:12,980
have come forward with their tales of

2408
01:38:16,660 --> 01:38:14,540
having been involved in the Roswell

2409
01:38:19,089 --> 01:38:16,670
sighting in some fashion that have blown

2410
01:38:21,310 --> 01:38:19,099
up in our faces you know it's clear that

2411
01:38:23,290 --> 01:38:21,320
they were making this stuff up and once

2412
01:38:25,089 --> 01:38:23,300
we got the proper documentation and we

2413
01:38:27,040 --> 01:38:25,099
got some other evidence we realized that

2414
01:38:29,260 --> 01:38:27,050
they were making the story up or or they

2415
01:38:30,850 --> 01:38:29,270
began to contradict themselves you know

2416
01:38:33,459 --> 01:38:30,860
in in the Socorro case Lonnie Zamora

2417
01:38:35,410 --> 01:38:33,469
never conducted contradicted himself we

2418
01:38:37,570 --> 01:38:35,420
don't have all these witnesses coming

2419
01:38:39,310 --> 01:38:37,580
forward say yeah I was there in 1964 and

2420
01:38:41,680 --> 01:38:39,320
I saw this that and the other thing we

2421
01:38:43,479 --> 01:38:41,690
have a very solid case we have a case of

2422
01:38:46,689 --> 01:38:43,489
a police officer who witnessed a thing

2423
01:38:48,189 --> 01:38:46,699
it leaves landing-gear markings on the

2424
01:38:50,919 --> 01:38:48,199
ground which is a different chain of

2425
01:38:54,129 --> 01:38:50,929
evidence from the testimony we no longer

2426
01:38:56,500 --> 01:38:54,139
say it's single witness we have three

2427
01:38:58,330 --> 01:38:56,510
witnesses who were not identified by

2428
01:39:00,490 --> 01:38:58,340
name but had called the police so we

2429
01:39:03,580 --> 01:39:00,500
have the documentation for it we have

2430
01:39:05,979 --> 01:39:03,590
the Colorado Taurus Greta that's even

2431
01:39:07,419 --> 01:39:05,989
worse testimony than our evidence then

2432
01:39:09,790 --> 01:39:07,429
the people who called the police station

2433
01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:09,800
because that secondhand from the gas

2434
01:39:13,390 --> 01:39:11,210
station management we don't know who

2435
01:39:16,209 --> 01:39:13,400
those people were we have other people

2436
01:39:18,310 --> 01:39:16,219
who are on the ground saw things in the

2437
01:39:20,500 --> 01:39:18,320
area that relate to this

2438
01:39:22,510 --> 01:39:20,510
so we have a good body of evidence it's

2439
01:39:24,940 --> 01:39:22,520
a much stronger much robust case than it

2440
01:39:26,890 --> 01:39:24,950
had been as we look at all the evidence

2441
01:39:28,750 --> 01:39:26,900
that's associated with it well had

2442
01:39:32,680 --> 01:39:28,760
anyone called in around the same time

2443
01:39:34,630 --> 01:39:32,690
that Lonny saw the UFO the three people

2444
01:39:36,940 --> 01:39:34,640
called just prior to him seeing the UFO

2445
01:39:38,380 --> 01:39:36,950
landed they called it before he called

2446
01:39:39,820 --> 01:39:38,390
the police and said you know I called

2447
01:39:42,370 --> 01:39:39,830
the station on his radio and says you

2448
01:39:44,710 --> 01:39:42,380
know I see this thing on the ground so

2449
01:39:47,170 --> 01:39:44,720
these three three people called it in

2450
01:39:48,100 --> 01:39:47,180
and reported it I think nepto Pez was

2451
01:39:50,170 --> 01:39:48,110
the guy's name

2452
01:39:52,600 --> 01:39:50,180
the police dispatcher he didn't write it

2453
01:39:55,630 --> 01:39:52,610
down because I don't know why he didn't

2454
01:39:58,690 --> 01:39:55,640
write the names down but once the story

2455
01:40:01,510 --> 01:39:58,700
came out then that information was was

2456
01:40:03,160 --> 01:40:01,520
corroborated by holders report written

2457
01:40:05,830 --> 01:40:03,170
that very night that these three food

2458
01:40:07,900 --> 01:40:05,840
people had called the police station I

2459
01:40:10,150 --> 01:40:07,910
am still astonished nobody went to find

2460
01:40:12,040 --> 01:40:10,160
those people because he shouldn't have

2461
01:40:14,290 --> 01:40:12,050
been that difficult of a task in a town

2462
01:40:16,480 --> 01:40:14,300
the size of a Socorro especially when

2463
01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:16,490
you knew the flight paths okay and even

2464
01:40:20,020 --> 01:40:18,650
if you had couldn't like those three

2465
01:40:21,780 --> 01:40:20,030
people you might have found two or three

2466
01:40:24,370 --> 01:40:21,790
others that had seen it or heard it

2467
01:40:26,530 --> 01:40:24,380
exactly and I'm wondering if I'm gonna

2468
01:40:28,560 --> 01:40:26,540
be confusing cases here but there was a

2469
01:40:31,150 --> 01:40:28,570
dispatcher that took those calls correct

2470
01:40:33,610 --> 01:40:31,160
yep Lopez was a guy who could took the

2471
01:40:36,850 --> 01:40:33,620
phone calls okay so so you had that on

2472
01:40:39,130 --> 01:40:36,860
record that was the holder's is the

2473
01:40:40,960 --> 01:40:39,140
record that we have for that yes we have

2474
01:40:42,850 --> 01:40:40,970
that we have that we have a record of

2475
01:40:47,200 --> 01:40:42,860
that documented the night the event

2476
01:40:49,300 --> 01:40:47,210
happened it's not like Holder said ten

2477
01:40:52,480 --> 01:40:49,310
years later oh by the way I remember the

2478
01:40:54,310 --> 01:40:52,490
net Lopez telling us about the the three

2479
01:40:56,140 --> 01:40:54,320
phone calls he wrote it down that very

2480
01:40:58,180 --> 01:40:56,150
night well do we know anything about

2481
01:41:01,510 --> 01:40:58,190
Lonnie Zamora that makes him a credible

2482
01:41:05,020 --> 01:41:01,520
witness it was a police officer yeah a

2483
01:41:08,170 --> 01:41:05,030
police officer training he didn't seem

2484
01:41:12,310 --> 01:41:08,180
prone to inventing tales

2485
01:41:15,040 --> 01:41:12,320
anybody can be fooled by the

2486
01:41:16,870 --> 01:41:15,050
circumstances the the skeptics like to

2487
01:41:19,150 --> 01:41:16,880
say well Lonnie Zamora lost his glasses

2488
01:41:22,690 --> 01:41:19,160
during the sighting yeah at the very end

2489
01:41:25,780 --> 01:41:22,700
after he'd been down close within 30

2490
01:41:27,400 --> 01:41:25,790
feet of the object after he ran back up

2491
01:41:30,040 --> 01:41:27,410
the hill as the thing began to roar and

2492
01:41:30,860 --> 01:41:30,050
knocked his glasses off after he'd seen

2493
01:41:33,260 --> 01:41:30,870
every

2494
01:41:36,530 --> 01:41:33,270
he lost his glasses so losing his

2495
01:41:38,300 --> 01:41:36,540
glasses is irrelevant to the story and

2496
01:41:41,660 --> 01:41:38,310
that also begs the question to me if if

2497
01:41:44,390 --> 01:41:41,670
it was a hoax he was really close yes

2498
01:41:46,970 --> 01:41:44,400
Eric as a as a police officer knowing

2499
01:41:49,510 --> 01:41:46,980
that there's kids in the area you know

2500
01:41:52,280 --> 01:41:49,520
sure he's experienced his fair share of

2501
01:41:54,680 --> 01:41:52,290
pranksters you know he would have been

2502
01:41:58,240 --> 01:41:54,690
keen enough to have heard something keep

2503
01:42:03,470 --> 01:41:58,250
his eyes out for something and yet no

2504
01:42:06,650 --> 01:42:03,480
there's just there's Quintanilla

2505
01:42:08,540 --> 01:42:06,660
the the project Bluebook chief said that

2506
01:42:10,100 --> 01:42:08,550
he always felt the answer was in

2507
01:42:11,900 --> 01:42:10,110
Lonnie's amorous head meaning that there

2508
01:42:14,030 --> 01:42:11,910
was something there that he observed and

2509
01:42:17,390 --> 01:42:14,040
that would have given him the answer if

2510
01:42:20,030 --> 01:42:17,400
the more I had processed the information

2511
01:42:21,530 --> 01:42:20,040
properly I didn't see anything like that

2512
01:42:23,630 --> 01:42:21,540
I mean Zamora seemed to be a very

2513
01:42:25,550 --> 01:42:23,640
credible source a very reliable man

2514
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:25,560
maybe not the brightest bulb in the

2515
01:42:31,100 --> 01:42:28,890
display but that doesn't mean he was

2516
01:42:32,720 --> 01:42:31,110
easily fooled either he was an

2517
01:42:37,220 --> 01:42:32,730
experienced police officer he was

2518
01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:37,230
experienced military man and there was a

2519
01:42:42,740 --> 01:42:39,810
physic lived near Air Force bases so

2520
01:42:44,150 --> 01:42:42,750
this was not you know you know craft and

2521
01:42:47,300 --> 01:42:44,160
unconventional crafts but it would have

2522
01:42:50,900 --> 01:42:47,310
been seen in this guy I'm sure well

2523
01:42:54,170 --> 01:42:50,910
absolutely and there were the landing

2524
01:42:56,300 --> 01:42:54,180
traces to make this thing work in Lonnie

2525
01:42:57,920 --> 01:42:56,310
Zamora is down I mean the landing traces

2526
01:42:59,960 --> 01:42:57,930
showed something very heavy being

2527
01:43:02,000 --> 01:42:59,970
pressed into the ground not something

2528
01:43:03,770 --> 01:43:02,010
light like a balloon or any of the other

2529
01:43:06,940 --> 01:43:03,780
explanation but something heavy pressed

2530
01:43:09,710 --> 01:43:06,950
in the ground and there is of course the

2531
01:43:12,410 --> 01:43:09,720
evidence from the flame that burned the

2532
01:43:16,400 --> 01:43:12,420
bush and some of the surrounding air a

2533
01:43:18,440 --> 01:43:16,410
test area if it had been a chemical

2534
01:43:20,180 --> 01:43:18,450
flame of some kind it would have left

2535
01:43:22,100 --> 01:43:20,190
residue that would have been picked up

2536
01:43:26,060 --> 01:43:22,110
in the samples and they would have said

2537
01:43:28,550 --> 01:43:26,070
all we found evidence of of gasoline we

2538
01:43:32,060 --> 01:43:28,560
found evidence of diesel fuel we found

2539
01:43:34,970 --> 01:43:32,070
evidence of propane using to send the

2540
01:43:36,500 --> 01:43:34,980
balloons the hot air balloons aloft you

2541
01:43:38,930 --> 01:43:36,510
know there would have been evidenced

2542
01:43:39,980 --> 01:43:38,940
there because it burned the the bushes

2543
01:43:41,990 --> 01:43:39,990
there would have been evidence of those

2544
01:43:43,460 --> 01:43:42,000
chemicals but they're nothing like that

2545
01:43:44,180 --> 01:43:43,470
was found and there were samples taken

2546
01:43:47,540 --> 01:43:44,190
by any No

2547
01:43:51,640 --> 01:43:47,550
of people and like I said Holder gave

2548
01:43:56,180 --> 01:43:51,650
his too high neck so the Air Force Labs

2549
01:43:57,740 --> 01:43:56,190
would would examine it but the thing is

2550
01:43:59,180 --> 01:43:57,750
you know you say well yeah the Air Force

2551
01:44:00,439 --> 01:43:59,190
they would have lied about it yeah they

2552
01:44:03,020 --> 01:44:00,449
woulda lied to the public but they

2553
01:44:05,500 --> 01:44:03,030
wouldn't alight in the files because if

2554
01:44:08,450 --> 01:44:05,510
you look at the files back at that time

2555
01:44:10,130 --> 01:44:08,460
they didn't expect anybody to be pawing

2556
01:44:13,040 --> 01:44:10,140
through them the way we are today I mean

2557
01:44:14,689 --> 01:44:13,050
complete sets of the files if they had

2558
01:44:19,610 --> 01:44:14,699
found something since y'all was really

2559
01:44:22,250 --> 01:44:19,620
was really strange residue in found

2560
01:44:25,100 --> 01:44:22,260
there we would know it but the files all

2561
01:44:30,200 --> 01:44:25,110
suggest everything was mundane NICAP had

2562
01:44:33,740 --> 01:44:30,210
had samples taken by Ray Stanford that

2563
01:44:35,840 --> 01:44:33,750
were examined in the nightcap files came

2564
01:44:37,209 --> 01:44:35,850
back the same way the nycap examination

2565
01:44:40,820 --> 01:44:37,219
came back the same ways and then we

2566
01:44:42,050 --> 01:44:40,830
nothing unusual here were these um when

2567
01:44:45,470 --> 01:44:42,060
you say examined are we talking about

2568
01:44:47,390 --> 01:44:45,480
spectroscopic analysis or all sorts of

2569
01:44:48,950 --> 01:44:47,400
all sorts of examinations that they

2570
01:44:50,990 --> 01:44:48,960
could do testing to see if they could

2571
01:44:52,970 --> 01:44:51,000
determine what was show there was a

2572
01:44:56,060 --> 01:44:52,980
little flecks of the metal were taken to

2573
01:44:58,340 --> 01:44:56,070
the Goddard center in the Washington DC

2574
01:45:00,470 --> 01:44:58,350
area to be examined and found found

2575
01:45:03,050 --> 01:45:00,480
nothing spectacular there although as I

2576
01:45:04,340 --> 01:45:03,060
talked about in the book ray Stanford

2577
01:45:05,990 --> 01:45:04,350
said he talked to the scientist who

2578
01:45:07,070 --> 01:45:06,000
originally did the test that suggests

2579
01:45:08,959 --> 01:45:07,080
there was something extremely unusual

2580
01:45:10,550 --> 01:45:08,969
about it but the next time he talked to

2581
01:45:13,910 --> 01:45:10,560
the scientist he said no there was

2582
01:45:15,800 --> 01:45:13,920
nothing there but but when you put it

2583
01:45:17,360 --> 01:45:15,810
into the totality of how everything went

2584
01:45:20,479 --> 01:45:17,370
down and who had samples and who

2585
01:45:21,890 --> 01:45:20,489
wouldn't it went who did what it doesn't

2586
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:21,900
seem that there was anything too

2587
01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:24,930
suggestive of any sorts of residue biet

2588
01:45:31,760 --> 01:45:28,010
metallic or chemical that would suggest

2589
01:45:34,790 --> 01:45:31,770
an extraterrestrial presence or suggest

2590
01:45:39,110 --> 01:45:34,800
a terrestrial explanation for the damage

2591
01:45:44,560 --> 01:45:39,120
that was seen and I want to touch on

2592
01:45:50,390 --> 01:45:44,570
this one case in in particular where a

2593
01:45:54,410 --> 01:45:50,400
family has seen armed with shotguns or

2594
01:45:56,630 --> 01:45:54,420
rifles if I recall correctly a little

2595
01:45:57,649 --> 01:45:56,640
bit of everything right they were well

2596
01:46:00,890 --> 01:45:57,659
armed

2597
01:46:04,510 --> 01:46:00,900
they had encountered creatures the

2598
01:46:09,649 --> 01:46:07,370
Sutton okay and and the creatures were

2599
01:46:11,720 --> 01:46:09,659
or this is it that night time or dusk

2600
01:46:13,879 --> 01:46:11,730
I'm not sure but they're coming towards

2601
01:46:16,760 --> 01:46:13,889
them and so tell us a little bit about

2602
01:46:18,319 --> 01:46:16,770
that well it's a very complex case

2603
01:46:19,850 --> 01:46:18,329
because there's a lot of people involved

2604
01:46:21,140 --> 01:46:19,860
and took place over several several

2605
01:46:24,919 --> 01:46:21,150
hours and there was a lot of shooting

2606
01:46:27,319 --> 01:46:24,929
involved but the story is one of the

2607
01:46:28,879 --> 01:46:27,329
guys was out in the back at the well and

2608
01:46:30,950 --> 01:46:28,889
as he was going back into the house he

2609
01:46:32,870 --> 01:46:30,960
saw something land out in the distance

2610
01:46:34,520 --> 01:46:32,880
and didn't think much of it and later

2611
01:46:36,950 --> 01:46:34,530
they saw some little creatures two and a

2612
01:46:39,800 --> 01:46:36,960
half three feet tall really bizarre

2613
01:46:42,109 --> 01:46:39,810
looking things frightened them badly and

2614
01:46:43,939 --> 01:46:42,119
they began they were using shotguns and

2615
01:46:45,500 --> 01:46:43,949
I think a 22 caliber rifle may have had

2616
01:46:47,270 --> 01:46:45,510
a pistol or two involved in that and

2617
01:46:48,950 --> 01:46:47,280
they would they would fire at it would

2618
01:46:51,979 --> 01:46:48,960
knock the creature down it would jump up

2619
01:46:54,410 --> 01:46:51,989
and run off and they kept surrounding

2620
01:46:56,330 --> 01:46:54,420
the house and they would disappear for a

2621
01:46:58,089 --> 01:46:56,340
while and come back and so around 11

2622
01:47:01,520 --> 01:46:58,099
p.m. that night I think it was 11 p.m.

2623
01:47:04,010 --> 01:47:01,530
the family jumped into two cars and

2624
01:47:08,180 --> 01:47:04,020
roared off to the local sheriff's office

2625
01:47:10,669 --> 01:47:08,190
the sheriff came back and with military

2626
01:47:11,780 --> 01:47:10,679
and they couldn't find any evidence of

2627
01:47:13,040 --> 01:47:11,790
the creatures I mean couldn't the

2628
01:47:15,560 --> 01:47:13,050
creatures were gone they couldn't find

2629
01:47:17,750 --> 01:47:15,570
the craft they did find some bizarre

2630
01:47:19,280 --> 01:47:17,760
residue on the ground and they found of

2631
01:47:22,250 --> 01:47:19,290
course some bullet holes in the screens

2632
01:47:25,959 --> 01:47:22,260
and whatnot suggesting they were firing

2633
01:47:27,950 --> 01:47:25,969
through the windows to get the creatures

2634
01:47:30,140 --> 01:47:27,960
the airforce wrote it off as

2635
01:47:31,879 --> 01:47:30,150
psychological problems they said that

2636
01:47:33,379 --> 01:47:31,889
the family had been through some kind of

2637
01:47:38,120 --> 01:47:33,389
a Pentecostal meeting and we're all

2638
01:47:39,260 --> 01:47:38,130
wound up in the revival and envisioned

2639
01:47:41,600 --> 01:47:39,270
this and they thought it may be some

2640
01:47:42,620 --> 01:47:41,610
monkeys that escaped from a local circus

2641
01:47:45,770 --> 01:47:42,630
and that was what they were saying

2642
01:47:47,240 --> 01:47:45,780
preposterous explanation Air Force said

2643
01:47:49,189 --> 01:47:47,250
originally we didn't investigate this

2644
01:47:51,020 --> 01:47:49,199
case but you go back and you look at

2645
01:47:52,520 --> 01:47:51,030
that file and you find out well yeah

2646
01:47:54,200 --> 01:47:52,530
they did they just did it in a

2647
01:47:55,850 --> 01:47:54,210
roundabout way so they could say we

2648
01:47:58,160 --> 01:47:55,860
didn't really investigate it officially

2649
01:47:59,030 --> 01:47:58,170
and if the if the case wasn't reported

2650
01:48:00,649 --> 01:47:59,040
the Air Force and they didn't

2651
01:48:03,410 --> 01:48:00,659
investigate officially it didn't exist

2652
01:48:05,030 --> 01:48:03,420
to them there be cases marked

2653
01:48:06,890 --> 01:48:05,040
information to only be a newspaper

2654
01:48:11,390 --> 01:48:06,900
clipping and something like that but

2655
01:48:13,550 --> 01:48:11,400
their explanation was that it was a

2656
01:48:15,050 --> 01:48:13,560
escaped from a circus but they could

2657
01:48:17,000 --> 01:48:15,060
find no monkeys they could find no

2658
01:48:19,640 --> 01:48:17,010
circus from which it could have escaped

2659
01:48:21,260 --> 01:48:19,650
or they could have escaped that sort of

2660
01:48:23,480 --> 01:48:21,270
thing the explanation never made sense

2661
01:48:25,310 --> 01:48:23,490
it's a bizarre case and I mean our story

2662
01:48:28,310 --> 01:48:25,320
yeah everybody everybody is thinking

2663
01:48:30,140 --> 01:48:28,320
yeah it not can't be true because of all

2664
01:48:31,130 --> 01:48:30,150
the shooting going on and the reaction

2665
01:48:32,900 --> 01:48:31,140
of the creatures and like they're

2666
01:48:35,060 --> 01:48:32,910
teasing him he says oh yeah yeah you

2667
01:48:37,130 --> 01:48:35,070
knocked us down or we fell down ha ha us

2668
01:48:38,360 --> 01:48:37,140
and and then they would show up again to

2669
01:48:39,860 --> 01:48:38,370
be shot at it's a really a bizarre

2670
01:48:42,200 --> 01:48:39,870
occasion you know when your inclination

2671
01:48:44,690 --> 01:48:42,210
to say well that's not true the family

2672
01:48:47,590 --> 01:48:44,700
was bizarre but I mean they were dirt

2673
01:48:49,490 --> 01:48:47,600
poor doesn't make them bad people

2674
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:49,500
doesn't make them prone to

2675
01:48:52,640 --> 01:48:50,610
hallucinations

2676
01:48:54,470 --> 01:48:52,650
there had been no revival meeting that

2677
01:48:56,150 --> 01:48:54,480
they attended there was some discussion

2678
01:48:57,710 --> 01:48:56,160
of drinking but there's no evidence that

2679
01:48:59,090 --> 01:48:57,720
they had been drinking moonshine or any

2680
01:49:01,880 --> 01:48:59,100
of that stuff they seemed very level

2681
01:49:03,950 --> 01:49:01,890
when they when the the sheriff's and his

2682
01:49:07,190 --> 01:49:03,960
deputies in the military went went back

2683
01:49:09,140 --> 01:49:07,200
that night they found they found some

2684
01:49:10,640 --> 01:49:09,150
evidence that things had gone on but

2685
01:49:12,980 --> 01:49:10,650
they didn't see the craft they didn't

2686
01:49:14,390 --> 01:49:12,990
see the the alien creature so they

2687
01:49:15,830 --> 01:49:14,400
couldn't testify to that but they could

2688
01:49:18,080 --> 01:49:15,840
testify to other things they saw that

2689
01:49:19,520 --> 01:49:18,090
night which gives it a note of

2690
01:49:22,340 --> 01:49:19,530
credibility that some of the other cases

2691
01:49:24,620 --> 01:49:22,350
that we look at don't have and then of

2692
01:49:26,930 --> 01:49:24,630
course the next morning some Air Force

2693
01:49:30,670 --> 01:49:26,940
officer I think he was on his annual

2694
01:49:34,550 --> 01:49:30,680
tour stuck his nose in the case and

2695
01:49:36,320 --> 01:49:34,560
wasn't very receptive to any idea of

2696
01:49:38,120 --> 01:49:36,330
alien landing and that sort of thing so

2697
01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:38,130
his reports aren't aren't very good but

2698
01:49:41,350 --> 01:49:39,570
when you go back again through the

2699
01:49:44,750 --> 01:49:41,360
project Bluebook files on this you find

2700
01:49:46,970 --> 01:49:44,760
that they were a little bit more

2701
01:49:49,610 --> 01:49:46,980
interested in it than they portrayed and

2702
01:49:51,350 --> 01:49:49,620
some of the documentation it contradicts

2703
01:49:52,670 --> 01:49:51,360
other documentation in the in the case

2704
01:49:55,010 --> 01:49:52,680
file I think you know we got to look at

2705
01:49:56,540 --> 01:49:55,020
all of that stuff you know do you want

2706
01:49:58,820 --> 01:49:56,550
to believe that alien creatures were

2707
01:50:01,880 --> 01:49:58,830
playing around that way one night in

2708
01:50:04,130 --> 01:50:01,890
Hopkinsville of Kentucky and the answer

2709
01:50:06,020 --> 01:50:04,140
my answer is no not really I don't

2710
01:50:08,120 --> 01:50:06,030
believe that but there's enough in there

2711
01:50:11,750 --> 01:50:08,130
to just give you pause and say well

2712
01:50:12,860 --> 01:50:11,760
something went on there that was really

2713
01:50:15,320 --> 01:50:12,870
really bizarre and the fact that

2714
01:50:17,330 --> 01:50:15,330
firearms were involved suggesting that

2715
01:50:18,980 --> 01:50:17,340
had it been some kind of a prank played

2716
01:50:21,260 --> 01:50:18,990
by somebody there would have been some

2717
01:50:23,270 --> 01:50:21,270
very unhappy people when the Sun came up

2718
01:50:24,540 --> 01:50:23,280
the next day and that just doesn't seem

2719
01:50:28,549 --> 01:50:24,550
to be the case

2720
01:50:34,350 --> 01:50:28,559
Shh what we have happy people I got shot

2721
01:50:38,390 --> 01:50:34,360
yeah in your experience the Socorro case

2722
01:50:41,510 --> 01:50:38,400
do you I don't know if you if you take a

2723
01:50:46,109 --> 01:50:41,520
position on this but do you believe that

2724
01:50:51,899 --> 01:50:46,119
Lonnie Zamora did see an actual craft

2725
01:50:55,919 --> 01:50:51,909
that was not a typical military craft if

2726
01:51:02,879 --> 01:50:55,929
you had gotten the last 20 pages you'd

2727
01:51:05,010 --> 01:51:02,889
know the answer that question the I look

2728
01:51:07,080 --> 01:51:05,020
at I look at it this way

2729
01:51:09,990 --> 01:51:07,090
I know of no terrestrial explanation

2730
01:51:11,790 --> 01:51:10,000
that fits the facts that does not

2731
01:51:14,339 --> 01:51:11,800
necessarily lead us to the

2732
01:51:15,270 --> 01:51:14,349
extra-terrestrial we need something more

2733
01:51:17,430 --> 01:51:15,280
to get there

2734
01:51:19,979 --> 01:51:17,440
Lonnie's does Zamora's description of

2735
01:51:21,089 --> 01:51:19,989
the craft and the creatures the beings I

2736
01:51:24,500 --> 01:51:21,099
shouldn't say creatures I should say

2737
01:51:27,000 --> 01:51:24,510
beings or things things he used are

2738
01:51:31,140 --> 01:51:27,010
suggestive that it is not of a

2739
01:51:32,399 --> 01:51:31,150
terrestrial nature but that that doesn't

2740
01:51:35,160 --> 01:51:32,409
really get us the evidence we need

2741
01:51:37,890 --> 01:51:35,170
something a little bit more substantive

2742
01:51:39,839 --> 01:51:37,900
to get to that point that's kind of

2743
01:51:42,510 --> 01:51:39,849
where I leave it I can't find a

2744
01:51:44,790 --> 01:51:42,520
terrestrial explanation I am NOT happy

2745
01:51:47,310 --> 01:51:44,800
of making happy about making the leap to

2746
01:51:49,339 --> 01:51:47,320
the extra-terrestrial without additional

2747
01:51:51,720 --> 01:51:49,349
evidence to support that conclusion

2748
01:51:53,640 --> 01:51:51,730
which which is a dumb thing for me to

2749
01:51:54,839 --> 01:51:53,650
say on your program because now all the

2750
01:51:57,209 --> 01:51:54,849
people listening said well we don't have

2751
01:51:59,129 --> 01:51:57,219
to buy the book now but you should mind

2752
01:52:00,959 --> 01:51:59,139
the book because you get all you get it

2753
01:52:02,160 --> 01:52:00,969
all wrapped up in a nice package and

2754
01:52:04,530 --> 01:52:02,170
you'll understand exactly where I'm

2755
01:52:06,419 --> 01:52:04,540
coming from oh sure and there's tons of

2756
01:52:10,229 --> 01:52:06,429
detail that is interesting detail that

2757
01:52:13,620 --> 01:52:10,239
we haven't gotten to and you make

2758
01:52:15,990 --> 01:52:13,630
comments and comparisons of other cases

2759
01:52:20,010 --> 01:52:16,000
in the New Mexico area I mean including

2760
01:52:22,169 --> 01:52:20,020
Kansas Wichita Falls and and I like how

2761
01:52:23,700 --> 01:52:22,179
you do compare them because because like

2762
01:52:28,819 --> 01:52:23,710
I had said at the beginning of the show

2763
01:52:33,390 --> 01:52:28,829
it I think it helps one understand the

2764
01:52:34,890 --> 01:52:33,400
investigative process in ufology well

2765
01:52:36,149 --> 01:52:34,900
what's interesting I should say what I

2766
01:52:37,490 --> 01:52:36,159
don't mean interrupt but what's

2767
01:52:39,140 --> 01:52:37,500
interesting is I have been

2768
01:52:42,800 --> 01:52:39,150
criticized for padding the book by

2769
01:52:44,690 --> 01:52:42,810
putting that stuff in there oh no no and

2770
01:52:47,360 --> 01:52:44,700
I was thinking am I thinking was by

2771
01:52:49,070 --> 01:52:47,370
doing that is you know the case the case

2772
01:52:51,400 --> 01:52:49,080
is stand alone we can look at just the

2773
01:52:55,040 --> 01:52:51,410
evidence on the supports a Korell case

2774
01:52:57,860 --> 01:52:55,050
but this other these other cases this

2775
01:52:59,600 --> 01:52:57,870
other information provides a context for

2776
01:53:01,520 --> 01:52:59,610
the whole thing and I think that context

2777
01:53:03,560 --> 01:53:01,530
is what is important here when we look

2778
01:53:06,170 --> 01:53:03,570
at the Socorro case so I thought that

2779
01:53:10,070 --> 01:53:06,180
information was was necessary to take a

2780
01:53:11,660 --> 01:53:10,080
look at that and give you know one of

2781
01:53:14,570 --> 01:53:11,670
the people who criticized the book was

2782
01:53:18,620 --> 01:53:14,580
somebody who's very deeply a mesh into

2783
01:53:20,750 --> 01:53:18,630
the Socorro case and into UFOs so a lot

2784
01:53:23,570 --> 01:53:20,760
of the information that I provided in

2785
01:53:25,540 --> 01:53:23,580
the book that I thought of would help

2786
01:53:28,220 --> 01:53:25,550
people understand it he already knew

2787
01:53:29,750 --> 01:53:28,230
because of his own research and the

2788
01:53:32,960 --> 01:53:29,760
years that he had conducted the research

2789
01:53:36,200 --> 01:53:32,970
but there are things in the book that

2790
01:53:39,500 --> 01:53:36,210
have not been publicized before but

2791
01:53:42,410 --> 01:53:39,510
these other cases were important to give

2792
01:53:44,030 --> 01:53:42,420
a context to the whole thing and you

2793
01:53:45,770 --> 01:53:44,040
know somebody read it wanting to read

2794
01:53:48,440 --> 01:53:45,780
about the Socorro cases someone doesn't

2795
01:53:50,420 --> 01:53:48,450
want to necessarily be dragged into the

2796
01:53:51,710 --> 01:53:50,430
Arnold sighting which I thought was

2797
01:53:52,520 --> 01:53:51,720
important for those who didn't

2798
01:53:55,460 --> 01:53:52,530
understand

2799
01:53:58,730 --> 01:53:55,470
ufology in some of the other landing

2800
01:54:00,350 --> 01:53:58,740
cases where the beings were seen I think

2801
01:54:02,120 --> 01:54:00,360
were important to give you an idea of

2802
01:54:05,030 --> 01:54:02,130
what sort of things are reported by the

2803
01:54:06,920 --> 01:54:05,040
written by reliable sources and what

2804
01:54:09,680 --> 01:54:06,930
evidence supports though there was a

2805
01:54:12,770 --> 01:54:09,690
landing in Kansas that I thought was

2806
01:54:14,600 --> 01:54:12,780
important because of the physical

2807
01:54:19,670 --> 01:54:14,610
evidence left behind in the description

2808
01:54:21,170 --> 01:54:19,680
of the the being so I I thought that

2809
01:54:25,160 --> 01:54:21,180
information was important to give you a

2810
01:54:28,370 --> 01:54:25,170
context for the entire case yes I get

2811
01:54:30,650 --> 01:54:28,380
when you first went down that road I did

2812
01:54:31,490 --> 01:54:30,660
have a moment of oh gosh we're gonna go

2813
01:54:34,430 --> 01:54:31,500
through the whole history if you

2814
01:54:36,440 --> 01:54:34,440
followed you right now but but but it

2815
01:54:39,200 --> 01:54:36,450
made sense and he didn't linger too long

2816
01:54:41,150 --> 01:54:39,210
on one thing or another and like I said

2817
01:54:44,240 --> 01:54:41,160
it was actually a refreshing read even

2818
01:54:48,680 --> 01:54:44,250
though you were recapping some of you

2819
01:54:50,240 --> 01:54:48,690
know other well-known stories but also I

2820
01:54:50,900 --> 01:54:50,250
also tried to provide you know for the

2821
01:54:52,520 --> 01:54:50,910
going

2822
01:54:54,410 --> 01:54:52,530
to these other cases and if I didn't go

2823
01:54:56,840 --> 01:54:54,420
into the depth I tried to provide the

2824
01:54:58,970 --> 01:54:56,850
sources so somebody who is interested in

2825
01:55:01,400 --> 01:54:58,980
that case could follow up on them on it

2826
01:55:03,920 --> 01:55:01,410
themselves and see if I adequately

2827
01:55:06,260 --> 01:55:03,930
addressed it or accurately addressed it

2828
01:55:08,120 --> 01:55:06,270
or if I went off on a tangent with those

2829
01:55:10,390 --> 01:55:08,130
cases so I tried to provide the

2830
01:55:14,440 --> 01:55:10,400
information so that you as the reader

2831
01:55:16,730 --> 01:55:14,450
could gather additional information

2832
01:55:19,040 --> 01:55:16,740
without having to go through all the

2833
01:55:20,540 --> 01:55:19,050
trials and tribulations I did to get to

2834
01:55:22,040 --> 01:55:20,550
those points so you know I gave you the

2835
01:55:24,110 --> 01:55:22,050
websites give you the names of the books

2836
01:55:26,150 --> 01:55:24,120
give you the names of the MUFON Journal

2837
01:55:27,680 --> 01:55:26,160
where the or the International UFO

2838
01:55:29,450 --> 01:55:27,690
reporter where that information might

2839
01:55:30,200 --> 01:55:29,460
have might have been so you can look it

2840
01:55:33,380 --> 01:55:30,210
up yourself

2841
01:55:36,290 --> 01:55:33,390
yeah and it was a fantastic read I still

2842
01:55:39,410 --> 01:55:36,300
have twenty four pages to go but but I'm

2843
01:55:41,960 --> 01:55:39,420
dead serious it really is a read a book

2844
01:55:43,220 --> 01:55:41,970
worth picking up to read my guest

2845
01:55:45,680 --> 01:55:43,230
tonight has been Kevin Randall Randall

2846
01:55:48,290 --> 01:55:45,690
thank you so much for coming onto the

2847
01:55:50,600 --> 01:55:48,300
paramon I really appreciate it I thought

2848
01:55:51,830 --> 01:55:50,610
it was more fun than getting dirty there

2849
01:55:55,460 --> 01:55:51,840
you go all right I mean there's always

2850
01:55:57,110 --> 01:55:55,470
an alternative and you're a zombie Smith

2851
01:55:59,030 --> 01:55:57,120
for paranoia now on the inception radio

2852
01:56:02,510 --> 01:55:59,040
network and I want to thank Joe champion

2853
01:56:05,000 --> 01:56:02,520
MJ Lucas and Bob tarmac from our end for

2854
01:56:08,090 --> 01:56:05,010
making this show possible and for all of